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Gemini 2.5 Pro Preview

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Re: Gemini 2.5 Pro Preview

#511

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's entirely clear that every last human will be beaten on code design in the upcoming years In what world is this statement remotely true.

Proof by negation, I guess? If someone were to claim: no computer will ever be able to beat humans in code design, would you agree with that? If the answer is "no", then there's your proof.

Proving things is fun, isn’t it?

But FYI “proof by negation” is better known as the fallacy of excluded middle when applied outside a binary logical system like this.

Re: Gemini 2.5 Pro Preview

#512

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> no amount of prompting will get current models to approach abstraction and architecture the way a person does I find this sentiment increasingly worrisome. It's entirely clear that every last human will be beaten on code design in the upcoming years (I am not going to argue if it's 1 or 5 years away, who cares?) I wished people would just stop holding on to what amounts to nothing, and think and talk more about wha…

I code with multiple LLMs every day and build products that use LLM tech under the hood. I dont think we're anywhere near LLMs being good at code design. Existing models make _tons_ of basic mistakes and require supervision even for relatively simple coding tasks in popular languages, and its worse for languages and frameworks that are less represented in public sources of training data. I am _frequently_ having to t…

I run a software development company with dozens of staff across multiple countries. Gemini has us to the point where we can actually stop hiring for certain roles and staff have been informed they must make use of these tools or they are surplus to requirements. At the current rate of improvement I believe we will be operating on far less staff in 2 years time.

Re: Gemini 2.5 Pro Preview

#513

My frustration with using these models for programming in the past has largely been around their tendency to hallucinate APIs that simply don't exist. The Gemini 2.5 models, both pro and flash, seem significantly less susceptible to this than any other model I've tried. There are still significant limitations, no amount of prompting will get current models to approach abstraction and architecture the way a person doe…

> no amount of prompting will get current models to approach abstraction and architecture the way a person does I find this sentiment increasingly worrisome. It's entirely clear that every last human will be beaten on code design in the upcoming years (I am not going to argue if it's 1 or 5 years away, who cares?) I wished people would just stop holding on to what amounts to nothing, and think and talk more about wha…

> It's entirely clear that every last human will be beaten on code design in the upcoming years

LOLLLLL. You see a good one-shot demo and imagine an upward line, I work with LLM assistance every day and see... an asymptote (which is only budged by exponential power expenditure). As they say in sailing, you'll never win the race by following the guy in front of you... which is exactly what every single LLM does: Do a sophisticated modeling of prior behavior. Innovation is not their strong suit LOL.

Perfect example- I cannot for the life of me get any LLM to stick with TDD building one feature at a time, which I know builds superior code (both as a human, and as an LLM!). Prompting will get them to do it for one or two cycles and then start regressing to the crap mean. Because that's what it was trained on. And it's the rare dev that can stick with TDD for whatever reason, so that's exactly what the LLM does. Which is absolutely subpar.

I'm not even joking, every single coding LLM would improve immeasurably if the model was refined to just 1) make a SINGLE test expectation, 2) watch it fail (to prove the test is valid), 3) build a feature, 4) work on it until the test passed, 5) repeat until app requirements are done. Anything already built that was broken by the new work would be highlighted by the unit test suite immediately and would be able to be fixed before the problem gets too complex.

LLM's also often "lose the plot", and that's not even a context limit problem, they just aren't conscious or have wills so their work eventually drifts off course or goes into these weird flip-flip states.

But sure, with an infinite amount of compute and an infinite amount of training data, anything is possible.

Re: Gemini 2.5 Pro Preview

#514

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> no amount of prompting will get current models to approach abstraction and architecture the way a person does I find this sentiment increasingly worrisome. It's entirely clear that every last human will be beaten on code design in the upcoming years (I am not going to argue if it's 1 or 5 years away, who cares?) I wished people would just stop holding on to what amounts to nothing, and think and talk more about wha…

> It's entirely clear that every last human will be beaten on code design in the upcoming years Citation needed. In fact, I think this pretty clearly hits the "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" bar.

Beating humans isnt really what matters. Its enabling developers to design who cant.

Last month I had a staff member design and build a distributed system that would be far beyond their capabilities without AI assistance. As a business owner this allows me to reduce the dependency and power of the senior devs.

Re: Gemini 2.5 Pro Preview

#515

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This so much. To me it seems so strange that few good language designers and ml folks didn't group together to work on this. It's clear that there is a space for some LLM meta language that could be designed to compile to bytecode, binary, JS, etc. It also doesn't need to be textual like we code, but some form of AST llama can manipulate with ease.

At that point why not just have LLMs generate bytecode in one shot? Plenty of training data to go on, I'd imagine.

The code would be un reviewable.

Re: Gemini 2.5 Pro Preview

#516

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's entirely clear that every last human will be beaten on code design in the upcoming years Citation needed. In fact, I think this pretty clearly hits the "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" bar.

Beating humans isnt really what matters. Its enabling developers to design who cant. Last month I had a staff member design and build a distributed system that would be far beyond their capabilities without AI assistance. As a business owner this allows me to reduce the dependency and power of the senior devs.

Hehe, have fun with that distributed system down the line.

Re: Gemini 2.5 Pro Preview

#517

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I code with multiple LLMs every day and build products that use LLM tech under the hood. I dont think we're anywhere near LLMs being good at code design. Existing models make _tons_ of basic mistakes and require supervision even for relatively simple coding tasks in popular languages, and its worse for languages and frameworks that are less represented in public sources of training data. I am _frequently_ having to t…

I can't point to any evidence. Also I can't think of what direct evidence I could present that would be convincing, short of an actual demonstration? I would like to try to justify my intuition though: Seems like the key question is: should we expect AI programming performance to scale well as more compute and specialised training is thrown at it? I don't see why not, it seems an almost ideal problem domain? * Short…

This is my view. We've seen this before in other problems where there's an on-hand automatic verifier. The nature of the problem mirrors previously solved problems.

The LLM skeptics need to point out what differs with code compared to Chess, DoTA, etc from a RL perspective. I don't believe they can. Until they can, I'm going to assume that LLMs will soon be better than any living human at writing good code.

Re: Gemini 2.5 Pro Preview

#518

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Beating humans isnt really what matters. Its enabling developers to design who cant. Last month I had a staff member design and build a distributed system that would be far beyond their capabilities without AI assistance. As a business owner this allows me to reduce the dependency and power of the senior devs.

Hehe, have fun with that distributed system down the line.

Why? We fully checked the design, what he built, and it was fully tested over weeks for security and stability.

Don't parrot what you read online that these systems are unable do this stuff. It's from the clueless or devs coping. Not only are they capable but theyre improving by the month.

Re: Gemini 2.5 Pro Preview

#519

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why coding agents et al don't make use of the AST through LSP is a question I've been asking myself since the first release of GitHub copilot. I assume that it's trickier than it seems as it hasn't happened yet.

What good do you think that would do?

I've gotten a bunch of unbalanced parentheses suggestions, as well as loads of non existent variables generated.

One could use the LSP errors to remove those completions.

Re: Gemini 2.5 Pro Preview

#520

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's entirely clear that every last human will be beaten on code design in the upcoming years Citation needed. In fact, I think this pretty clearly hits the "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" bar.

Beating humans isnt really what matters. Its enabling developers to design who cant. Last month I had a staff member design and build a distributed system that would be far beyond their capabilities without AI assistance. As a business owner this allows me to reduce the dependency and power of the senior devs.

"With great power comes great responsibility"

Does that junior dev take responsibility when that system breaks ?

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