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California's most neglected group of students: the gifted ones

latimes.com

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Re: California's most neglected group of students: the gifted ones

#511

Post by aguaviva »

int_19h wrote: post #486
aguaviva wrote: post #483

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Katyń forest massacres (to the extent that about a third of the victims were targeted for being members of the intelligentsia) come to mind as a reasonably similar instance of the kind of "lynching" you're referring to. Within the USSR itself we have the purges of leading intellectuals in Ukraine -- the number of victims is more difficult to quantify, but was likely far beyond the few hundred known by name: https…

Right, but that's just the classic occupier tactic - target the (usually independent-minded) intelligentsia of conquered territories to suppress any budding national liberation movements. But OP was talking about Maoist purges of their own intelligentsia. Bolsheviks indiscriminately purged the nobility, which certainly did disproportionally affect intelligentsia, but they weren't ideologically anti-intellectual the w…

Yeah, I was being charitable to Stalin, and considering the population those Republics as "his" people (which of course they never were). But I do see the distinction you are making here.

Re: California's most neglected group of students: the gifted ones

#512

Post by cogman10 »

leoedin wrote: post #493
nuancebydefault wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> invest 2x the resources into a person that will never likely tinder a significant benefit to society? So you would rather have the cleaning lady, the garbage collector, the truck driver,... not got proper read/write/calculate/economics... education and increase their chances of ending on the side where they fall for addiction instead?

I think it's pretty clear to everyone that teaching basic literacy - reading, writing, practical maths etc - is a huge societal benefit. Nobody is advocating for not doing that. What is maybe less clear is the benefit of extending formal academic education to 18 and beyond for everyone. If someone is not academically gifted, why make them waste years of their life struggling through an academic education. What's the…

> What is maybe less clear is the benefit of extending formal academic education to 18 and beyond for everyone.

For a democratic society, I think there's a pretty big benefit in making the general population fairly well educated beyond just what it takes to make them proficient at a job.

The point would be to make sure they could reasonably reason about the policies and politicians they are voting for or against.

Now, maybe that can all be covered in high school classes. However, I think a lot of humanity and philosophy classes just don't come in until college level classes.

Re: California's most neglected group of students: the gifted ones

#513

Post by sirspacey »

csa wrote: post #10

It’s not just California, but California may be one of the more egregious state neglecters. The push at the state level for policies that focus on equality of outcomes over equality of opportunities will not end well for the gifted and talented communities. Whenever I hear these people talk about their policies, I can’t help but recall Harrison Bergeron. Focusing on equality of outcomes in a society that structurally…

It’s working out for many of the gifted kids I meet because it pushes their parents to put them in charter/private/montessori

There really isn’t a “gifted” program in a public school setting. Mostly it’s just more volume of work, not acceleration of learning. Head Start is certainly one of the better programs, but it’s not great compared to a Montessori or Project-Based Learning approach.

Another factor: in public school kids are generally punished socially for doing significantly above average. They learn to isolate their emotional selves from everyone and become a “success object” for the school.

It’s so critical for all children, including our best and brightest, to experience being valued as a person distinct from their performance. As Paul G has often said, following your interest is how to maximize your potential for impact.

Public schools for a long time fought to hang on to top performing students to improve outcomes. I think the push against outcome-based approached is necessary, if misguided in this case. Outcome based policies have failed, wholesale, across the globe. They create strange, unproductive learning environments where signals of learning become the only thing children work on. “Most Likely to Succeed” is a phenomenal book on why outcomes-based learning is a farce and what the better way is.

Re: California's most neglected group of students: the gifted ones

#514

Post by flustercan »

G&T was a great way for me to learn a smug sense of superiority over my classmates and believe that inherit ability is more important to success than hard work.

That being said - in most of my non honors classes kids would get made fun of for doing the work or knowing an answer. G&T was nice not because the curriculum was so much different, but rather because it created space where the kids who liked learning could be left in peace.

Re: California's most neglected group of students: the gifted ones

#515

Post by newsclues »

roguecoder wrote: post #387
newsclues wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was in the gifted program in Canada and while that may have been an aim, it was also to identify the best and given them opportunities to excel, to allow them to grow and go on to be extraordinary citizens.

That kind of moral value being given to what is just neurodiversity is a huge part of the problem. By implication, you've just called people with learning disabilities "the worst". Neither group of children benefits from morality being attributed to their neurodivergence. Least of all the kids who overperform and have learning disabilities at the same time. It is good that people are different. It doesn't make gifted…

No, it’s a recognition that the regular education system is for average or less students and society will benefit from extra education for the smartest.

You’re right, it’s good that people are different and celebrating and enhancing their gifts is a great thing rather than catering to the lowest common denominator

Re: California's most neglected group of students: the gifted ones

#516

Post by AlgorithmicTime »

cogman10 wrote: post #66
phil21 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Killing truly progressive programs for the purpose of virtue signaling is a loss for society It's not just a loss for society. It's society-killing. Taking resources away from those who move society forward and spending them on those who are unlikely to "pay it back" is a way your culture dies. Conquerers in the past used this strategy to win massive empires for themselves. It's a ridiculous self-own. This is perha…

> Taking resources away from those who move society forward and spending them on those who are unlikely to "pay it back" is a way your culture dies. What does this even mean? To me, the measure of a healthy society is how that society treats those that are "unlikely to pay it back". The most unhealthy societies treat unwanted humans as disposable refuse. For example, I don't think we'd call the culture/society of the…

[dead]

Re: California's most neglected group of students: the gifted ones

#517

Post by iwontberude »

roguecoder wrote: post #351
iwontberude wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Functionally talented and gifted students autodidact to their interests which is a much better outcome than institutionalized bullshit schooling. I deeply disagree with your assessment that institutional learning is some universal booster for smart people and shows your own personal bias. So in balance of your position: I think it grinds down a students willpower and spirit to be placed on a pedestal to be given more…

Learning from teachers is a skill that can be learned, and taught. Being unable to learn from others or collaborate with others will vastly limit what gifted children can accomplish in life. Not teaching those skills as skills sets gifted children up for failure in college and the workplace. There's also other skills that are very often difficult for "gifted" kids to learn: rejection sensitivity disorder, for example…

I’m not advocating for isolation, rather I’m talking about anarchy. Being able to self select who you learn from and not being in a graded and tracked institutional setting. It’s soulless and contrived.

Re: California's most neglected group of students: the gifted ones

#518

Post by [deleted] »

exe34 wrote: post #497
aspenmayer wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regardless of whether or not either interlocutor understands the term, using the term virtue signaling itself is self-defeating for both parties for different reasons. For the one hearing it, it’s a red herring, and for the one saying it, it’s a dog whistle. For the third party person reading the interaction without or with lesser context, it’s a thought-terminating cliche.

> For the third party person reading the interaction without or with lesser context, it’s a thought-terminating cliche. if one's thought is so easily terminated, maybe there wasn't as much thought as one might think to begin with.

[deleted]

Re: California's most neglected group of students: the gifted ones

#519

Post by Eumenes »

teachrdan wrote: post #506
Eumenes wrote: post #505

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah sorry I don't care about some click bait US News list on "best states". Also, the methodology is based on test scores which I could care less about. Being good at the SATs and ACT just mean you have rich parents that can steamroll your tutoring, which tracks with high cost of living places like Mass.

You are literally choosing to dismiss data that destroys your argument while providing none which supports it. Your opposition to teachers unions is clearly based on your emotions and ideology rather than any facts. Please do better when posting on HN.

correlation does not equal causation homie. a US news listicle with a method of ranking doesn't mean anything. i can find a list that has mass towards the middle or bottom depending on the bias of the ranking i share.

Re: California's most neglected group of students: the gifted ones

#520

Post by oooGuy »

bobfromsf wrote: post #90

As a father with a son with IQ over 160, I can tell you unequivocally that California thinks gifted kids are the enemy. Gifted children, especially profoundly gifted kids like mine are special needs. He can’t function in a regular class because he would become bored and would act out and constantly get in trouble. Since my kid was a toddler we have had to completely rely on ourselves to figure everything out and we w…

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