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Hezbollah hand-held radios detonate across Lebanon, sources say

reuters.com

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Re: Hezbollah hand-held radios detonate across Lebanon, sources say

#511

Post by ineedasername »

lxchase wrote: post #80

Anyone know how these devices may have been triggered that would be different from pagers? I imagine these radios would have to be modified to listen to multiple channels in case a radio was on a different channel than planned.

If the Israelis are as careful as they were with Stuxnet there might be a permanent kill switch baked into the implementation to prevent being triggered in the future. Without an initiating event, the type of explosive believed to be used here is very stable with respect to normal kinetic shocks or heat.

Re: Hezbollah hand-held radios detonate across Lebanon, sources say

#513

Post by OutOfHere »

orionsbelt wrote: post #228
OutOfHere wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This was a deliberate targeting of terrorists, Negative. Anyone can use a pager or a walkie talkie. If this were to have happened in say the US, it would 100% be considered not only terrorism, but an act of war.

Who is using a pager or walkie talking in 2024? I will admit there was maybe a few bystanders standing too close to a Hezbollah member, but how many non-Hezbollah members do you think really had one of these pagers? Keep in mind Israel also does surveillance and probably tracked where they went. If it turns out a material % of these were owned by civilians, I might agree with you, but I suspect that’s not the case.

Just because you don't know of legitimate uses of a walkie doesn't mean they don't exist. A walkie can work independent of a cell phone network, which makes it uniquely useful for numerous applications. Not everyone can afford a cell phone bill.

Re: Hezbollah hand-held radios detonate across Lebanon, sources say

#514

Post by polynomial »

WrongAssumption wrote: post #429
JohnMakin wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My phrasing says exactly what it says - that this was indiscriminate. Do you think the IDF considered whether civilians would be harmed, or have a good possibility of being harmed? Surely blowing up thousands of devices in a major urban area would fall somewhere under this consideration.

Yes, it’s clear they considered it. It’s the only reason they didn’t make the explosions much more powerful. Why else?

Well there is only a limited amount of space in the container (pager housing.) Early reports were that the shaped charge was about the size of a #2 pencil eraser.

I am not making assumptions about their intentions, only relating facts as I am aware of them.

Re: Hezbollah hand-held radios detonate across Lebanon, sources say

#515

Post by stetrain »

numpad0 wrote: post #486
stetrain wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The definition of terrorism is controversial and political, so there isn't a hard answer. But I think a general distinction is the targeting of combatants vs civilians. There is a difference between infiltrating military or para-military organizations or operations and intentionally targeting mass casualties of civilians for attention.

The entire US is going to freak out if a platoon of KGB soldiers flew into US and killed hundreds of bad guys. How objectively bad the "victims" might have been isn't going to matter. You can't just walk across a recognized international border and do the "right" thing without a consent, regardless of how right or wrong it had been. That's an act of war, technically.

As far as I know in this case both sides have already attacked each other via bombs, airstrikes, rockets, etc. I'm not really making a judgement on whether this was ethical or justified.

There's just a distinction to be made from intentionally killing civilians for the purpose of causing terror versus targeting a group that you are in an open military hostility with. The second one, as you say, is basically just war. And war has historically also included civilian casualties.

Flying a plane full of civilians into a building full of civilians, or detonating a bomb in a public square full of civilians, are pretty clear examples of what "terrorism" is. They aren't actions meant to directly attack the capability of an enemy to wage war against you.

What governments and media choose to label "terrorism" or "terrorist groups" however is inherently political and not done following some agreed, objective definition.

Re: Hezbollah hand-held radios detonate across Lebanon, sources say

#516

Post by [deleted] »

OutOfHere wrote: post #182
orionsbelt wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

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> This was a deliberate targeting of terrorists, Negative. Anyone can use a pager or a walkie talkie. If this were to have happened in say the US, it would 100% be considered not only terrorism, but an act of war.

[deleted]

Re: Hezbollah hand-held radios detonate across Lebanon, sources say

#517

Post by dralley »

tsimionescu wrote: post #338
tptacek wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Under International Humanitarian Law it absolutely does make it OK if the owner of the phone is a militant. This is black letter Law of Armed Combat.

Attacking millitatns while they are in the middle of civilians, especially when they are not doing that as part of some hostage/human shield operation, is not OK.

[flagged]

Re: Hezbollah hand-held radios detonate across Lebanon, sources say

#518

Post by lukan »

numpad0 wrote: post #486
stetrain wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The definition of terrorism is controversial and political, so there isn't a hard answer. But I think a general distinction is the targeting of combatants vs civilians. There is a difference between infiltrating military or para-military organizations or operations and intentionally targeting mass casualties of civilians for attention.

The entire US is going to freak out if a platoon of KGB soldiers flew into US and killed hundreds of bad guys. How objectively bad the "victims" might have been isn't going to matter. You can't just walk across a recognized international border and do the "right" thing without a consent, regardless of how right or wrong it had been. That's an act of war, technically.

You are aware that Hezbollah routinely fires missiles into Israel (and Israel fires Artillery and drop bombs)?

How would you call that?

There is already a war, so far it just has been avoided to become an all out war.

Re: Hezbollah hand-held radios detonate across Lebanon, sources say

#519

Post by mrguyorama »

N_A_T_E wrote: post #244
ivan_gammel wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is terrorism if the attack is planned in such a way, where innocent people will suffer with very high probability and nothing is done to prevent that.

It's terrorism if non-combatants are the target. These attacks targeted combatants who were being sent information to conduct combat through the very same devices that exploded.

>It's terrorism if non-combatants are the target

This is actually insufficient, unless you think the bombing of Berlin was terrorism. If your attack is about primarily about reducing military capability then it isn't terrorism.

Bombing a tank factory staffed entirely by civilians is not terrorism. Launching an expensive cruise missile against a single apartment block is probably terrorism, but if that apartment block houses all the scientists of the Manhattan project, maybe it's not. Bombing a military base isn't terrorism even if you end up killing all the families of the soldiers stationed there.

Re: Hezbollah hand-held radios detonate across Lebanon, sources say

#520

Post by rozap »

TiredOfLife wrote: post #509
rozap wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Israel is not really an ally. They routinely spy on the US, and according the the CIA, spy on us as aggressively as the Chinese and Russians do. During the Cold war, they used intel as a bargaining chip and passed classified material to the Soviets. Their nuclear program was started primarily with stolen radioactive material that they exfiltrated from the US. These stories go on and on and on, and they're just the on…

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