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10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

miamiherald.com

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Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#511

Post by bufferoverflow »

labrador wrote: post #107

I support immigration and oppose the Republican anti-immigrant platform because it seems to me there is significant brain drain from many countries to the U.S. and that contributes to our success. For example, in this article is about white collar crime, it points out that many Somali-Americans were professionals back in Somalia. I'm not concerned about the crime because that seems like a somewhat higher tendency unt…

> I support immigration and oppose the Republican anti-immigrant platform

Republicans are anti-illegal immigration, not anti-immigration. Trump's wife is an immigrant.

> because it seems to me there is significant brain drain from many countries to the U.S. and that contributes to our success.

It would only be a brain drain if you filter by skills or IQ. But if you just let everyone in, you can make things worse, not better.

> I'm not concerned about the crime

Of course, and we can see the results.

Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#512

Post by jfengel »

sumedh wrote: post #454
jfengel wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An easy way to reduce illegal immigration is to raise quotas. People would rather migrate legally.

Why raise quotas though?

He said he liked legal immigration. So we can have more legal immigrants any time we want.

If they don't want to raise quotas then they don't really want legal immigrants. They just want to keep everyone out.

Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#513

Post by aaplok »

bko wrote: post #381
noduerme wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> various European nations [...] some immigrant groups American Jew here, who spent years living in France and Spain. I've heard the same polite euphemisms refering to Arabs and Gypsies from the mouths of members of the Front National. You know, before 1945 it was said in Europe that Jews weren't able to integrate fully with the host society. One might ask: Was that the Jews' fault? Or the host society's fault? It's…

> It's a relevant question. You are blaming it on the particular group of migrants involved in the case of Europe right now. But historically Europe has ghettoized other groups. My understanding is that pre-WW2 Europe you had community groups that dealt with their people. So in a Jewish neighborhood, you had powerful Rabbis or other religious leaders that dole out law. These unofficial community leaders were given a…

> I think its perfectly reasonable to say that if you don't accept a countries values, you should not be allowed to move there.

If we are still talking about France, then this is a country that 10 years ago saw big groups loudly oppose same-sex marriage, and who now oppose assisted reproduction. The (black female) minister carrying the law was subject to vile racist and sexist caricatures and mockery. France is a country whose president characterised the denunciations of sexual abuse by a famous actor as a man hunt. More recently still, an "expert" was heard on a widely watched TV network blaming the victims of rape for the reduction of births in the west. The same TV network that had to apologise a few months ago for claiming that abortion is the leading cause of deaths in the world.

The common point between all of these? They were all people of long term French descent. Not recent immigrants. There is no accepted "country's values" to begin with. There are laws, which are enforced and which immigrants and natives alike are expected to obey.

Now since you are talking about America, there are plenty of Americans, descendants of Americans for generations, who oppose abortion, to the point where it's all but illegal in several states. The past and likely future president is a rapist who bragged about it. There are no universally shared values among the American people around the rights of women either, and that's true even if we don't count immigrants as "true" Americans, whatever that may mean. America is a country which until very recently had segregation laws, and the "values" these laws represented didn't suddenly disappear when these laws were repelled.

Before claiming that immigrants should be accepting a country's values there should be some clarity around what those values are. Then someone should decide what to do with the people in the country who don't share those values. Political regimes that implement such "values"-based systems have a name: fascism.

Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#514

Post by csomar »

zozbot234 wrote: post #189
torpfactory wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s a very sizable number of low paying, dirty, dangerous, and/or boring jobs that we can’t find enough locals to do. Think farm hands, home care aides, meat processors, etc. Unskilled immigrants do those jobs because that’s what is available to them (I.e unskilled). If they weren’t doing those jobs, we’d have to pay significantly more for the goods and services that labor depends on. Immigrant labor is disinflat…

These jobs are low-paying because they're broadly unproductive. If some of them weren't doing these jobs, the wages paid for them at the margin would increase. We are vastly better off importing more skilled immigrants to high-income countries, compared to unskilled ones.

Construction in a tight real estate market is broadly unproductive?

Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#515

Post by blendo »

PentiumBug wrote: post #290

As a Cuban that is currently living in Cuba, I think it might be useful to voice my opinions, as I have read some comments here which I consider less than accurate in some respects. To avoid typing too much, I'll summarize with... bullet points? * The published figure of 10 million people is already outdated. First, they are official figures, which means that they are not telling the truth. Second, six months have el…

> Hardliners have grown worried that the experiment with capitalism could threaten the government’s tight grip on power, and the Cuban military, which used to control most foreign currency coming into the island, is viewing these companies as competition, sources in Cuba said.

How much blame does the military have for the mass exodus of Cubans?

Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#516

Post by _heimdall »

vitaflo wrote: post #351
_heimdall wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is and isn't legal immigration is always a moving target. A majority of US history included open borders where it was legal for anyone to get off a boat, provide some basic info, and go on to try and make their way here. The idea of closed borders, immigration caps, etc is relatively modern and driven more by the fact that social entitlement programs cost money than a fear of dangerous people coming here.

> A majority of US history included open borders where it was legal for anyone to get off a boat, provide some basic info, and go on to try and make their way here. Unless you were coming off a boat from Africa. Lets not forget that slavery defined a large section of American history.

I didn't say that anyone getting off a boat was doing it willingly. There are a ton of problems in US history related to slavery, not least of which how our founding fathers handled slavery while attempted to build a nation based on freedom and individual rights.

That's separate from the core topic here though. The slave trade and all the problems that go along with it do not change the fact that our borders were open for a majority of our history.

Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#517

Post by mongol »

foobarian wrote: post #397
deaddodo wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was as much (more, even) pressure on the Italians and Irish to do the same. But, to add to and enforce OP's point, their cultures were a larger schism away and they instead held on and entrenched their identities (to their objective detriment, no matter your moral stance). Meanwhile, Anglo, Franco, German, Dutch, etc cultures all kind of melded into the early "White American" identity; due to the general ease o…

How much difference is there, really, between various European nationalities? They are all white and Christian, using similar language and script, mostly the difference is in the Christian denomination.

Similar language is a stretch. Sure, European languages have similar roots, if you go enough far back. But the ability to speak your native language with a fellow European of another nationality, and have a fluent conversation, is quite limited.

Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#518

Post by noduerme »

TMWNN wrote: post #450
noduerme wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> various European nations [...] some immigrant groups American Jew here, who spent years living in France and Spain. I've heard the same polite euphemisms refering to Arabs and Gypsies from the mouths of members of the Front National. You know, before 1945 it was said in Europe that Jews weren't able to integrate fully with the host society. One might ask: Was that the Jews' fault? Or the host society's fault? It's…

>One might ask: Was that the Jews' fault? Or the host society's fault? I will speak from the perspective of one who emigrated to the US. Every new group is initially seen as "the other". After some point, however, employers that hire "the other" may find that they can pay them less because there is less demand to hire them, and thus benefit financially, they hire more. As other employers follow suit, over time the sa…

I'm not unsympathetic to the idea that mainstream Islam, since then 1970s, has morphed into something closer to extreme ultraorthodox Judaism or an extreme branch of Christianity. And this is certainly an obstacle to integration. But it is not irreversible, and I think in particular rejection by a foreign host culture serves to reinforce that extremism. North Korean defectors have a lot of trouble assimilating in South Korea, despite speaking the same language. Their hard drives are formatted differently, their software is different. The goal of a host society should be to study where the differences present themselves acutely and how to alleviate the pain and rejection of individual emigrants without accepting extremism or compromising the values of the culture into which they have immigrated. This means teaching individualism and the importance of education and self sufficiency rather than doling out welfare subsistence, but it also means the mainstream culture must actively try to embrace the individuals who wish to become part of mainstream society. Europe fails in both.

W/r/t the failure of the US toward Black people, I completely agree with the sibling comment by user:avz and would have nothing more to add.

Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#519

Post by slantedview »

Relevant reminder that Cuba has been under a brutal economic embargo and sanctions regime by the US for decades, which is the primary driver of Cuba's economic situation. The sanctions began during an era of land reform that saw American corporations, such as United Fruit, lobbying the US to overthrow the Cuban government on their behalf. When that failed, the US imposed sanctions.

Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#520

Post by goodluckchuck »

OJFord wrote: post #160
inglor_cz wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As the old joke from behind the Iron Curtain said... Q: "What would happen in Saudi Arabia if Communism triumphed there?" A: "First, shortage of oil, later, shortage of sand." Edit: for all the downvoters, shortages were our daily lived experience when I was a kid. I still remember chasing such rare stuff as "kid's sneakers" or "toilet paper". And Czechoslovakia was still better off than neighbouring Poland, where yo…

Wasn't that deliberate oppression though? Not that I'm pro-communism as an ideal or anything (I favour free-market conservatism) I'm just not sure it can be blamed for ineptitude/mismanagement there as the joke implies?

If you want to be a dictator, then you have to say you’ll be a benevolent dictator and that people will have work and there will be food and they will have shelter and an education. Would-be dictators don’t get very far telling people they’ll be cold and hungry.
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