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Panic at the Job Market

matt.sh

511–520 of 1001 posts

Re: Panic at the Job Market

#511

>"I didn’t sign up to be a “software servant” to non-technical product teams who just define tasks and priorities for actually capable people to implement every day." This structure is what most enterprise software teams have converged upon. If you're facing eviction, it might be wise to consider the upside of swallowing your pride and doing the job within the boundary conditions the market dictates. Do not let perfe…

The interview process should resemble this then. IIRC it mostly doesn't, but it's been a while since I've had much experience past the "thank you your interest" e-mail signed "Sincerely, (name of company)" from a no-reply address. Maybe the author doesn't want to lower his standards. Fine. He's got the rent to worry about. I've got a lot more than that on the line and I'm more than willing to fill that role if they'd…

The best interview I've experienced was done exactly like this. Candidates were given a scaffolded, incomplete program, written on the company's internal platform (which you'd be using on the job), and a list of features/tasks to implement in it. Each feature built off the previous ones, and ramped up in difficulty as well as in the breadth of platform features required to implement it.

Documentation for the libraries was provided. Throughout the interview, you could ask some of the folks on the team questions about using the libraries, for some help with debugging, stuff like that. The interview closely resembled actual day-to-day work on the team. (I'll note also, that this company's platform had an open source variant; and so candidates could also tinker with it before the interview).

The team eventually hired me, and then I got to see it from the other side. The positive and negative signals both seemed great: some candidates refused to read the documentation, or even ask for help; they were a clear non-fit. Candidates who completed the assigned tasks, or at least most of them, and communicated well with the team, were usually given an offer, and when hired turned out to be great collaborators.

Re: Panic at the Job Market

#512
Just like "if it's stupid and it works, it's not stupid", if you were smart enough to see all the problems in all your past jobs but those companies still went bankrupt, maybe you weren't actually the ideal employee you think you are. And if programming interviews are beneath you and only passed by your inferiors but you can't pay rent, maybe they're not actually so far beneath you.

Using your l33t knowledge of AWS to make the query go from 7 seconds to 40ms or the batch job go from 40 hours to 20 minutes is rarely the difference between a successful company and a failure. Executive dysfunction often is that difference, but if all you do is remember it for your snarky blog post then you're not giving people a reason to employ you.

Wanting companies to be better at sysadminning is good up to a point, but when you focus too much on better database design and AWS cost savings then you're the middle stonemason in that McKinsey parable.

Re: Panic at the Job Market

#513
Please hire me based on how awesome I think I am, not how awesome you think I am.

That summarizes most of his hiring related grievances.

From the title and the first couple paragraphs I expected a deep dive into macroeconomics and the tech industry. Rather, its a rambling rehash of the complaints about interviews and hiring which have made the rounds on HN and Reddit over the last 15 years. Credit where its due, his lived experience is enough to make the article thought provoking. Just not educational.

Re: Panic at the Job Market

#514

>The “most advanced” people often use simple solutions indistinguishable from people who don’t know what they are doing. Average people are often in the “knows enough to be dangerous” category by over-thinking and over-working and over-processing everything out of lack of more complete experience to discover simpler and cleaner solutions. The article was worth reading just for the above gem.

I once had to design an error-message display for an office machine with an 8-line, 40-character wide LCD. Errors could only be shown on the bottom line and if they were more than 40 characters long (I'm looking at you, German language!), they had to scroll. I spent hours trying to figure out some mathematical calculation that took the screen width and the total length of the error message and how much was off screen…

I'm curious, what was the approach you tried in the morning? Maybe it's a failure of my imagination but I can't think of anything other than the "window" strategy except scrolling word-by-word or something.

Re: Panic at the Job Market

#515

I will add my two cents for people who believe that this might be related only to the SWE and tangent industries: It's really not. I have many friends (in Europe) who are trying to get through to different jobs in unrelated industries ranging from finance to fashion, or just trying to get promoted vertically (or horizontally), failing rather miserably. Most jobs are now hoops after hoops, not taking into consideratio…

> Most jobs are now hoops after hoops, not taking into consideration your particular profile or the contributions you can make. I’ve done some mentoring of CS grads for the past few years. We some times get people with unreasonable interview demands, like companies asking them to make an entire app or website for the interview process. We advise them to decline the really excessive ones. However, it’s rare to see tha…

> Often we’ll get people complaining about excessive interview loops, but when they describe the process it adds up to around 4-5 hours total.

I’ve researched and negotiated the terms of buying small businesses in less time.

4-5 hours is excessive for most jobs imho. You might be able to justify up to three or so for a C-suite position, 1-1.5 should be enough for most lower level positions, and anything beyond that is just institutional masturbation.

Collect a work sample, talk to them about work to see if they are like-minded in terms of working norms and habits. At that point, if it’s a hell yeah, then go with it. Otherwise it’s a pass. If a new hire significantly underperforms, just help them find a better place inside or outside of your org during the probationary period. If they are just leeches, then fire them mercilessly during the probationary period and revisit your hiring process.

Re: Panic at the Job Market

#516
post #25

I generally like the article but the author seems to have a really inflated view of what jobs are paying. At one point he’s claiming that a stable non tech company like a tractor manufacturer is paying 5k-10k. Even assuming that’s including taxes so divide by two, and constraining to just software employees for that claim. There is no way the average pay is nearly a million a year. The average software engineer in th…

I think he was just using hyperbole for effect. Also to annoy people probably.

Re: Panic at the Job Market

#517
post #39

There might be some good points buried in this post, but all I get is bitterness without much self-reflection. They seem like they'd be difficult to work with and would blame you for it.

>The worst feeling is comparison. Comparison is the death of happiness, as they say. I look at my own place in the world compared to people who just started at Apple or Microsoft 20 years ago then never left

I found this quote and I can understand, but if you are also lucky enough to know such people, couldn't you use such connections to help bolster your own career?

While there are people out there making millions joining the right company at the right time, imo I would be happy with making 150k at my next position (depending on the area of course, I really wish WFH was still popular to allow people to live in areas with a lower cost of living), an amount which the author seems to thing is not much. To be fair though, the also has more experience and seniority over me based on his article

Re: Panic at the Job Market

#518

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As in, a person who has used and learned a dozen plus languages but only tacitly used C++ suddenly will be a complete invalid when trying to write in C++? I've switched at least 5 languages professionally and used probably 5 more for extended periods of time and wrote a decent chunk of C++ "back in the day". I'd say C++ is the least suitable for "learn on the job" approach out of any language I can think of (I'm lu…

Same. I wrote C++ "professionally" for ~5ish years out of my 25 year career and would only consider myself a novice in the language.

Been doing C for forty years and feel the same.

Re: Panic at the Job Market

#519
post #512

Just like "if it's stupid and it works, it's not stupid", if you were smart enough to see all the problems in all your past jobs but those companies still went bankrupt, maybe you weren't actually the ideal employee you think you are. And if programming interviews are beneath you and only passed by your inferiors but you can't pay rent, maybe they're not actually so far beneath you. Using your l33t knowledge of AWS t…

> if you were smart enough to see all the problems in all your past jobs but those companies still went bankrupt, maybe you weren't actually the ideal employee you think you are.

If you're smart enough to see all the problems but the company goes bankrupt, maybe are were actually just the ideal employee.

For the vast majority of roles, tech and otherwise, hiring managers prefer to hire someone who'll ask questions like, "how high?" when told to jump, and not, "no" and "why?".

You should be senior enough to do the job well but not senior enough to make your boss feel like they're junior.

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