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Perplexity AI is lying about their user agent

rknight.me

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Re: Perplexity AI is lying about their user agent

#511

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The legality of their behavior is not currently well defined, because it's unprecedented. Fair use permits transformative works. It has yet to be decided whether LLMs and their output qualify as transformative, or even if the training is capable of infringing copyright of an individual work in the first place if they're not reproducing it. In fact, there's a good amount of evidence which indicates that fair use _does…

Note that not all jurisdictions have the concept of "fair use" (use of copyrighted material, regardless of transformation applied, is permitted in certain contexts…ish). Canada, the UK, Australia, and other jurisdictions have "fair dealing" (use of copyrighted material depends on both reason and transformation applied…ish). Other jurisdictions have neither, and only licensed uses are permitted. Because the companies…

You're right. I'm definitely taking a very US-centric view here; it's the only copyright system I'm familiar with. I'm really curious how jurisdictions with no concept of fair use or fair dealing work. That seems like a legal nightmare. I expect you wouldn't even be able to critique a copyrighted work effectively, nor teach about it.

When you speak of the "perfect reproduction" problem, are you referring to cases where LLMs have spit out code which is recognizable from source training data? I agree that that's a problem, but I expect the solution is to have a wider range of training data to allow the LLM to better "learn" the structure of what it's being trained on. With more/broader training data, the resulting output should have less chance of reproducing exactly what it was trained on _and_ potentially introduce novel methods of solving a given problem. In the meantime, it would probably be smart for some kind of test for recognizable reproduction and for the answers to be thrown out, perhaps with a link to the source material in their place.

There's also a point, however, where the same code is likely to be reproduced regardless of training. Mathematical formulas and algorithms come to mind. If there's only one good solution to a problem, even humans are likely to come up with the same code without even seeing each others output. It seems like there's a grey area here which we need to find some way to account for. Granted this is probably the exception, rather than the rule.

> It's almost as if wholesale copyright violations were the entire business model.

If I had to guess, this is probably a case where businesses are pushing something out sooner than it should have been. I find it unlikely that any business is truly basing their model on something which is so obviously illegal. I'm fully willing to believe, however, that they're willing to ignore specific instances of unintentional copyright infringement until they're forced to do something about it. I'm no corporate apologist. I just don't want to see us throw this technology away because it has problems which still need solving.

Re: Perplexity AI is lying about their user agent

#512
post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Perplexity’s source code is downloaded from a public web site or other repository, and you take the time to understand the code and produce your own novel implementation, then yes. Now, if you “get it from a friend”, illegally, _or_ you just redeploy the code, without creating a transformative work, then there’s a problem. > Just pay the stupid license and if that makes your business unsustainable then it's not mu…

> If Perplexity’s source code is downloaded from a public web site or other repository, and you take the time to understand the code and produce your own novel implementation, then yes. Even that can be considered infringement and get you taken to court. It's one of the reasons reading leaked code is considered bad and you hear terms like cleanroom[0] when discussing reproductions of products. [0]: https://en.wikiped…

It certainly can be, but it's not guaranteed. Clean room design is one way to avoid a legally ambiguous situation. It's not a hard requirement to avoid infringement. For example, the US Supreme Court ruled that Google's use of the Java APIs fell under fair use.

My point is: just because certain source material was used in the making of another work does not guarantee that it's infringing on the rights of that original IP.

Re: Perplexity AI is lying about their user agent

#513
post #455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually don't see the legal distinction here. A browser with an ad blocker is also: 1. Asking for a copy of your content 2. Manipulating the content 3. Redistributing the content to the end-user who requested it Ditto for the LLM that has been asked by the end user to fetch your content and show it to them (possibly with a manipulation step e.g. summarization). I don't think there's a legal, copyright distinction…

The difference isn't so much the server, but the third party. You're allowed to modify computer programs (websites) as part of using them. You aren't allowed to then transfer the modified version (see section 117 of the US copyright code). If you're in control of the server there's a plausible argument that you aren't transferring it. When perplexity is in control of the server... I don't see it. A traditional ad-blo…

Section 117 is irrelevant — it grants archival rights to end-users for computer programs. It doesn't make claims about servers or legal third parties.

(Although it is relevant in disproving your point: I can pay an archival service to back up data I legally have the right to view, even if the backup is then on their server, and despite the service being a different legal entity than me. And they can give me a copy of it later, too.)

> You could conceivably make "ublock origin except it's a proxy run by a third party and we modify the website on the proxy", I'd agree that that has the same problem as a service like perplexity (though a different fair use analysis and I'm not sure what way that would go).

So, running a local LLM version of Perplexity that does exactly the same thing is legal, but Perplexity is illegal, because "a third party legal entity has the data"?

Re: Perplexity AI is lying about their user agent

#515

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Google wouldn't have as much of an incentive to provide the answer in a snippet, and everyone wins. Google has at least two incentives to provide that answer, both of which wouldn't change. The bad one: they want to keep you on their page too, for usual bullshit attention economy reasons. The good one: users prefer the snippets too . The user searching for information usually isn't there to marvel at beauty of rand…

I strongly disagree with you. The only reason that users prefer snippets is because websites hide the info you are looking for. The problem is that the top ranked search results are ad-infested SEO crap. If the top ranked website were actually designed with the user in mind, they would not hide the important info. They would present the most important info at the top, and contain additional details below. They would…

I think optimising for that just leads to another kind of SEO slop. I mostly use the summaries for answers to questions like "what's the atomic number of aluminium". The sensible way of laying this out on a website is as a table or something like that, which requires another click, load, and manual lookup in the table. The summaries are useful for that, and if the websites want to answer that question directly, it means they want to make a bunch of tiny pages with a question like that and the answer, which is not something I want to browse through normally. (And indeed, I have seen SEO slop in this vein)

Re: Perplexity AI is lying about their user agent

#516

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny enough, their prompts leaked: https://www.reddit.com/r/perplexity_ai/s/kn6i20kMLH And I’ve built a perplexity clone in about a day - it’s not that hard: search -> scrape results -> parse results —> summarize results -> summarize aggregate results into single summary. I’m really not sure I even see their moat.

What have you used if i may ask? It seems very simple indeed. What search API is best? Also there is a program called html2text to throw out the html formatting so as to use less tokens. Have you used this or something similar?

Brave API (Bing is good as well). Here's a little gist (Elixir). It's pretty rudimentary so far and needs refining, but works alright enough (result at bottom): https://gist.github.com/cpursley/b4af2ff3b56c912f659bd5300e4...

The most useful part is probably the prompt and usage of Phi 3 Mini 128K Instruct for web page summarization and Llama 3 for the final summary (of the summaries). I'm parsing out all but minimal content html but might even remove that to keep context length down.

Re: Perplexity AI is lying about their user agent

#517

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If explicitly telling it to access a URL is an access by automaton, then isn't every web browser load an access by automaton?

The flaw with that example is your web browser isn't between other users and the website, turning 500 views into one. And if we took the analogy to the other end, one could argue that all crawlers have to be kicked off manually at some point... The problem is here in reality the differentiation is somewhat more understood. The honor system web is going away, that's for sure.

> The flaw with that example is your web browser isn't between other users and the website, turning 500 views into one.

So, a caching proxy? That has its own issues, but it's the opposite of access by automaton. One button press causes less than one access to the server. Though one button press still results in one user view, so it's only reducing loads in some ways.

But also is that happening here?

> And if we took the analogy to the other end, one could argue that all crawlers have to be kicked off manually at some point...

One button press causing a million page loads is access by automaton. The distinction seems pretty simple to me.

Re: Perplexity AI is lying about their user agent

#518

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to go a little bit more into detail on this, because the article and most of the conversation here is based on a big misunderstanding: robots.txt governs crawlers . Fetching a single user-specified URL is not crawling. Crawling is when you automatically follow links to continue fetching subsequent pages. Perplexity’s documentation that the article links to describes how their crawler works. That is not the piece…

Its fairly logical to assume that robots.txt governs robots (empahsis in "bots") not just crawlers, if they are only intended to block crawlers why aren't they called crawlers.txt instead and remove all ambiguity?

> Its fairly logical to assume that robots.txt governs robots (empahsis in "bots") not just crawlers

It's plenty logical. That doesn't make it correct.

> if they are only intended to block crawlers why aren't they called crawlers.txt instead and remove all ambiguity?

Ha. Ask HTTP Referer.

A million standards have quirks in them that we're stuck with.

Re: Perplexity AI is lying about their user agent

#519

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it's not what happened here. It WAS retrieving on request. > I went into Perplexity and asked "What's on this page rknight.me/PerplexityBot?". Immediately I could see the log and just like Lewis, the user agent didn't include their custom user agent

That was to test the user-agent hiding. The broader problem—Perplexity laundering attribution—is where the scraping vs retrieval question comes into play.

Well the example in the post doesn't show any laundering. Do you have an example of it?

Unless you mean the entire concept of training launders attribution, but that's basically unrelated to this post and the complaints inside it.

Re: Perplexity AI is lying about their user agent

#520
post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's nice that people are willing to create content on Stack Overflow so that Prosus NV can make advertising revenue from their free labor. But ultimately only a fool would trust answers from secondary sources like Stack Overflow, Quora, Wikipedia, Hacker News, etc. They can be useful sources to start an investigation but ultimately for anything important you still have to drill down to reliable primary sources. This…

What is even more helpful than answers on S.O. are the comments. Of course it is only to begin an investigation. But who will want to clarify properly if most of the answers are LLM garbage, too many to keep up with? It is not simply "nice", or for internet points, to take time to answer other people's questions. Being able to pass on knowledge is the glue of society and civilization. Cynicism about the value or reas…

We managed to pass on knowledge and keep civilization functioning before Stack Overflow existed. We'll be fine without it.
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