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The darker side of being a doctor (2017)

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Re: The darker side of being a doctor (2017)

#511

Post by BrandoElFollito »

aiilns wrote: post #500
BrandoElFollito wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey, there is a reason you can use Internet and this is us :) It is not that IT is overpaid, it is that doctors are underpaid - at least in France. We are the world champions of strikes and yet, somehow, doctors rarely go on strike. I do not know why. They also know where they are going, it is not like they discover the world of medicine after 8 or 10 years. I am happy that they are people who want to help others, bu…

> We are the world champions of strikes and yet, somehow, doctors rarely go on strike. I do not know why. When talking about public healthcare, strikes mean little. State won't care unless the strike is massive enough to attract media attention. Hospitals can't close down, a "safe" minimum of workers must care for patients so not a big problem for the state generally.

Except if that safe minimum is on strike as well. It takes a coordinated effort, sure, but we have role models such as the train conductors or other champions of strikes

Re: The darker side of being a doctor (2017)

#512

Post by BrandoElFollito »

wiether wrote: post #325
BrandoElFollito wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey, there is a reason you can use Internet and this is us :) It is not that IT is overpaid, it is that doctors are underpaid - at least in France. We are the world champions of strikes and yet, somehow, doctors rarely go on strike. I do not know why. They also know where they are going, it is not like they discover the world of medicine after 8 or 10 years. I am happy that they are people who want to help others, bu…

If you're talking about the situation here in France, it's a bit different regarding money. Doctors are still paid more than most people in IT. Given the IT money in the US, I'm not sure they have the same situation if we look at the hourly rate. Regarding doctors strikes, I asked the question to multiple ones and the few explanations I got are : - they are deeply regulated and organized, they rely more on acting beh…

I will have to look up actual numbers, but with 30 patients a day this is 25€x30x5x4=15000 a month pre everything. You take out taxes, costs, everything they need to pay in full and I guess the salary will not be very different from IT.

EDIT: I just looked up some numbers and you are right, MDs get about 5000€ net pour month in average, which is higher than IT

Re: The darker side of being a doctor (2017)

#513

Post by kwhitefoot »

lelanthran wrote: post #322
kwhitefoot wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They would earn less money. > the power to change things, even without collectivizing. Not really it's a sort of prisoner's dilemma. The one who refuses to work stupid hours gets fired and someone else has their job. If they stood together then it might work.

> Not really it's a sort of prisoner's dilemma. The one who refuses to work stupid hours gets fired and someone else has their job. Is this relevant in a profession that already doesn't have enough practitioners? I mean, let's say there is a shortage of 100 doctors in a location that currently has 900. If you fire one, wouldn't they easily pick up one of the open 100 slots?

The individual concerned is still fired and has a harder time surviving than the company that fired them.

Re: The darker side of being a doctor (2017)

#514

Post by space_oddity »

rr808 wrote: post #125
bsdz wrote: post #30

Something I've never quite understood is why, in the UK, we cap the number of medical students per year. I've known very bright people who aspired to be doctors but had their applications turned down only to go on to do phds and become scientists instead. I'd rather have twice as many doctors who work sensible hours rather than the status quo burn out. Looks like there are calls to change this. https://commonslibrary…

An associated problem is that bright people from rural or poor areas who are really passionate about being a doctor dont get the right grades to get in. Middle class kids in cities get in because its a good career but dont really like it that much and definitely dont want to work outside their city. My brother worked as a doctor until his thirties then quit, such a waste of training.

If I think about it.. it's unfortunate that access to medical education and careers can be limited by factors such as socioeconomic background or geographical location... If I understand correctly

Re: The darker side of being a doctor (2017)

#515

Post by rqtwteye »

malfist wrote: post #495
pc86 wrote: post #431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's not pretend we're talking about the difference between $30k and $60k/yr here. We're talking about $400k vs. $800k. "I'll only make half a million dollars a year if I do this" does not set oneself up to be a sympathetic character.

In what world is your typical surgeon paid $800k/yr?

In the US a lot of surgeons make this much or more.

Re: The darker side of being a doctor (2017)

#516

Post by worik »

psychlops wrote: post #408
worik wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The goal of a union is to put a fence around the employers and drive wages up Feeding the troll: The role of a union is to represent the interests of their members

Fair enough, I'll revise my statement: the side effect of a union is to put a fence around the employers and drive wages up. While you've identified their stated purpose, I can assure you after having been in multiple unions that they serve themselves first, then their members.

Yes

> I can assure you after having been in multiple unions that they serve themselves first, then their members.

The doctor's union for senior doctors in New Zealand is an exception to that rule.

I have had similar experiences as you with unions I have belonged to, but still, they were useful when I got into a dispute with those evil powerful people who had the power over me.

But you are not wrong

Re: The darker side of being a doctor (2017)

#518

Post by game_the0ry »

CydeWeys wrote: post #469
to1y wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's strange as you would expect quality to suffer in every single respect when forced to work inhumane conditions. I would find a different mechanic if I thought the one I was considering was miserable from being overworked. Was there an explanation for why outcomes improved? Perhaps it is necessary to look into who conducts these studies as I imagine someone up the ladder profits greatly from having 1 doctor do t…

Quality does suffer as the hours drag on, but quality suffers more when you hand off a case (which can be quite complex) to someone else. The tired but experienced-with-this-case doctor still does a better job than the rested doctor who is brand new to the patient's case.

Source?

Re: The darker side of being a doctor (2017)

#519

Post by obscurette »

int_19h wrote: post #505
obscurette wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While somewhat rudely expressed, but in principle I'd agree. There are people who call it modern day imperialism – it's the draining high performant brains from other countries what allows western societies to keep doing a lot of things.

As an immigrant myself, I've heard this take a lot. I despise it because it treats us as a resource that you can allocate here or there as needed to solve problems, ignoring the person themselves and their needs and wants. What if the "high performant brain" does not want to sacrifice their own well-being for the sake of "improving their country"? If "anti-imperialist" Westerners truly care so much about brain drain…

Don't be offended. I completely understand that in personal level the view is very different. It's normal that in personal level you make your own choices and choose whatever is better for you personally. But it doesn't mean that a lot of people choosing whatever it's best for them are creating outcome that's better for the world.

PS. I didn't say that people calling this imperialism are from west.

Re: The darker side of being a doctor (2017)

#520

Post by IncreasePosts »

317070 wrote: post #79
malux85 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about the meta-game, where doctors get burnt out or suicide, and that increases pressure on the remaining doctors, in a negative feedback loop. We should impose work limits on doctors, just like pilots.

What I don't understand: Say I'm a doctor, and I declare I will only work my 40 hours (or however much a full time is where you are). I will literally leave when my time is up. Oh, and I don't pick up phones outside of work. Or read emails. What will anyone else do about it? Fire me? Then they have even less doctors... It seems to me doctors do have the power to change things, even without collectivizing. But for som…

If you don't have your own practice, yes, they might fire you. If you're only working "part time", you're bringing in less in patient associated payments for the owners compared to people who work more.

There's also the fact that doctors might prefer $700k/yr working 80 hour weeks vs $350k/yr working 40 hour weeks. A lot of people who become doctors are workaholics and were behaving in a similar manner throughout their schooling.

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