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Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

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Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#511

Post by hef19898 »

matsemann wrote: post #473
dang wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's a legit concern and it worries me too. We can only go by the articles that users submit, and then only the subset we see, which is a function of (a) randomness and (b) users bringing specific cases to our attention. If there's a bias in the stories that have made HN's front page, that bias is present in the underlying data (I mean this stream of articles) to begin with. Why might that be? Well, there are…

FWIW, it's also easy to claim HN is biased, because people are biased differently, and HN is close to global. As a northern european, I for instance would say that I often find HN trend conservative, compared to the discourses in my country. But someone from a different part of the world could claim HN to lean progressive, based on their political environment. So I don't think there is an easy way here. If one were t…

Well, there are things that cannot be bozt-sided:

Everything that violates human right for example. Or direct threats to democracy.

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#512

Post by hef19898 »

bawolff wrote: post #315
ethanbond wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Onus doesn’t mean legal requirement. Civilized nations can be, should be, and generally are held to standards far exceeding legal statutes. 2. They DO have an actual legal obligation to protect journalists as well, try searching for “civilian.” If they are targeting journalists (read: civilians) that would obviously be illegal.

> Onus doesn’t mean legal requirement. Civilized nations can be, should be, and generally are held to standards far exceeding legal statutes. Are they? USA literally has a law on the books that authorizes bombing the netherlands if any of their troops are ever held responsible. Trump pardoned 4 people who masacared civilians (including 2 children) in Iraq The west doesn't just not go beyond the legal requirements, it…

Proof forbthe claim about the US bombing the Netherlands please.

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#513

Post by steve_gh »

McNutty wrote: post #13
blurbleblurble wrote: post #6

I appreciate that this is on here and I hope we can collectively handle it. Tech isn't isolated from this situation, as difficult as it is to admit and talk about with civility and care. A US military software engineer even self immolated recently in protest of what's happening. I don't see what's happening in Gaza as being culturally particular to the specific identity groups involved here. It's a very human situati…

Strongly disagree. This platform for tech news should not become a place for political posts, nor even for posting regular news headlines. Yes we know that reddit sucks but stop trying to make hn into reddit. Also the community can't handle it, just look at the handful of comments we already have here.

By reading the comments on this post I have learned about non-central hypergeometric distributions - which I didn't know about (and turn out to be relevant to a bunch of problems I am thinking about for my job).

HN readers and contributors at least try to think of themselves as the grown-ups in the room. So, by having conversations about contentious topics in a civilized and respectful way, we learn things.

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#514

Post by GordonS »

AtlasBarfed wrote: post #474
wolverine876 wrote: post #440

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Israel did NOT rush in, and is engaging in effective counterattacks According to all the experts I read, Israel rushed in without a political outcome planned. All warfare is a tool to achieve political outcomes (unless the outcome was to drive Palestinians out of Gaza or just destroy as many people and buildings as possible). All warfare ends only with a stable political solution; otherwise it continues indefinitel…

The political aim was to cause a LOT of casualties. I'm not going to disagree that this is ugly stuff, but Hamas must have known this was the result. Also I do think the Israelis think they can get a large amount of Hamas leadership. Gaza is a mafia state under control by Hamas, who likely control all aid coming into the country and certainly the Iranian military funding. Israel seems to apply a 10x minimum response…

> I think Egypt has room to take in Palestinian refugees. They simply refuse to do it. I have not gotten any good reason why they hate them. I guess the Lebanese hate their Palestinian enclave. It is clear the Arab world doesn't care about the Palestinians, and a common brotherhood of Islam doesn't carry weight.

This is a bad take. Egypt, and others, refuse to take "Palestinian refugees" because doing so would make them complicit in Israel's ethic cleansing. Why should Palestinians be forced off their own land?

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#515

Post by Vecr »

redeeman wrote: post #364
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 10% would be considered an extremely high death rate for soldiers involved in the fighting. Even 2.5% for healthcare workers is ridiculously high. Hamas based their operations where conventional rules of war prohibit fire. That makes comparing casualty rates incredibly difficult. (To my knowledge, nobody else has done this so comprehensively. Though given its success, I expect it to be emulated. Which unfortunately…

[flagged]

It's likely he would not be allowed to leave by internal forces. Obviously he could try to sneak away but that's what the Russia aligned guy did back in 2014...

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#516

Post by hef19898 »

nayaketo wrote: post #471
shprd wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Israel will get shot at and not be allowed to shoot back. The logic doesn't really follow What shots exactly? the missiles? Attack the launch sites. They're pretty clear as they expose themselves. Israel has 24/7 surveillance it shouldn't be a challenge. Can you support your claim by showing evidence that a hospital was used to launch missiles? You likely don't have evidence that Israel is targeting anything. It se…

> What shots exactly? the missiles? Attack the launch sites. What if those launch sites are top of hospitals or media buildings?

There is no proof that ever happened... And even if, no, you do not bomb hospitals if you do not want to be the baddy.

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#517

Post by GordonS »

immibis wrote: post #231
screye wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a remarkably small number. It makes me think journalists weren't present in the warzone at all. Irrespective of which side you support, Hamas is notorious for colocating themselves among civilians. An elevated civilian death count, including journalists is to be expected. However, the numbers being THIS high in this short a time is alarming and tragic.

You began the sentence with "Irrespective of which side you support, Hamas" so you might not be aware that both sides use human shields.

Funny thing is, since this all kicked off I've seen several photos and videos clearly showing Israeli soldiers using civilians, including children, as human shields. I haven't seen any evidence of Hamas doing anything like this; it seems Hamas are mostly accused of this by Israel, simply because Hamas exists in a dense, urban environment.

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#518

Post by kome »

matsemann wrote: post #473
dang wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's a legit concern and it worries me too. We can only go by the articles that users submit, and then only the subset we see, which is a function of (a) randomness and (b) users bringing specific cases to our attention. If there's a bias in the stories that have made HN's front page, that bias is present in the underlying data (I mean this stream of articles) to begin with. Why might that be? Well, there are…

FWIW, it's also easy to claim HN is biased, because people are biased differently, and HN is close to global. As a northern european, I for instance would say that I often find HN trend conservative, compared to the discourses in my country. But someone from a different part of the world could claim HN to lean progressive, based on their political environment. So I don't think there is an easy way here. If one were t…

I agree with you. From my Southern European perspective, I don't find this site particularly "progressive" at all. I would describe most of the comments as liberal or centre-right.

And indeed, there is no solution here other than to be tolerant of other opinions, which may come from very different contexts than your own.

american foreign policy often becomes european union migration policy. just remember that, for example, when discussing international affairs.

Having said that, I have to say that HN is one of the communities that is better at dealing with different opinions, from different places. It's much harder on Reddit. On Metafilter, it is absolutely impossible: anything far from mainstream American liberalism is considered taboo.

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#519

Post by throwaway2990 »

hef19898 wrote: post #508
throwaway2990 wrote: post #502

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why did they take hostages to begin with. And why did they take them past perfectly fine hospitals? There was no risk.

Why did they take hostages? Because it was a terror attack? And no, of course there is no threat if suoerior military starts levelling the city around you, why would that be dangerous in anyway... By the way, the IDF already killed three hostages waving white flags. Nice rescue operation, I have to admit. At least now those hostages are safe from both, Hamas and the IDF.

Wow clutching hard at straws to justify hamas and deny their usage of hospitals as military bases.

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#520

Post by GordonS »

tsimionescu wrote: post #453
screye wrote: post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maybe another method is needed then? What would be useful is a historic example where another approach has worked. I don't approve of Israel's methods. I'd prefer an egalitarian solution. But, I'm all out of ideas. Find me an instance of 2 co-habiting or neighboring groups that hate each other, have huge disputes and ended up in relative peace. I can give you my recent examples of previous instances that are now mo…

We actually have very clear examples from history of how to turn an enemy into a friend: the Marshall plan and the similar levels of aid that the USA poured into post-nazi Germany, post-fascist Italy, post-imperial Japan. That turned War-torn bitter enemies into some of the staunchest US allies today. Given Israel's position of power, they can and should be doing this. However, Israeli politicians just don't want thi…

> Destroying Hamas is a pipe dream - the famine, death, and destruction they are pereptrating in Gaza today will, inevitably, create a new wave of terrorism, whether it's called "Hamas" or something else, as it always has throughout all of history.

I've seen it argued that is exactly what Israel want - to whip up a new frenzy of Islamophobia, both encouraging immigration to Israel and also making it easier to attack their neighbours and advance their plan for "Greater Israel".

I thought it sounded unlikely at first, but with everything going on in the UK right now... I'm inclined to believe it.

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