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Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

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Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#511

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Private rooms are not cheap and it would be hard to justify for junior programmers. And having private space just for middle level folks is bad for morale and learning of junior folks. But yeah for companies which just employs senior folks this should be the norm.

Skilled labor isn't cheap. The buildings were put there to serve the people, not the other way around. Even if you pay $1k per office per programmer that's still less than 5-10% of the cost of their salary, and would likely yield a performance improvement of greater than 5-10%. You say you can't afford to, I say you can't afford not to!

> Even if you pay $1k per office per programmer

You mean per year? Private office costs are much higher than that.

If you mean per month, then you are assuming salary to be average of $100k-200k.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#512

Just want to add that I only became (at least in my opinion) a good programmer by sitting next to a very good and passionate one that I was able to question from time to time and may have interrupted his work some days. I also probably helped him brainstorm ideas with me and debugging, since he would just say what's on his mind while doing it, and I'd do the same, and sometimes this kind of ping pong debugging/brains…

I think the interruptions in a group setting have huge disastrous effects as nobody really ever gets into a good flow state. I'm sure it's useful for training and mentorship, but that's frankly not your employer's problem these days. People switch jobs every year, and if you train up staff only their next company is really going to reap the benefits. If learning on the job raises retention then it's only marginal. If…

I highly, highly disagree. Getting advice on the spot is often critical. And rarely will you get good practical advice like "always do a dry build locally from the command line" on the forums.

I can't even count how many times I had to tell other engineers, that they have to run a clean build locally...

Not to mention, that mentorship can be useful just for the processes that are present within the company.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#513

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The awesome thing about modern programming culture is that rework due to the initial thing you shipped being rushed and shoddy actually looks really good on Tableau. Because you can assign more story points to fixing all the mistakes you made during the last 1-2 days of every sprint.

Bugs and unintentional design deficiencies get zero story points at my job. It's actually something I fought for because it's faux-progress - it's work that's actually a part of the original (likely underestimated) story someone already earned points for.

Doesn't that make it impossible to use story points for estimating effort and ensuring people aren't overcommitted?

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#514
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always find it surprising that so many people struggle to make effective human connections over chat. I think it must be generational, as I believe these are the connections I and other young people prefer.

I've made numerous friends over IRCs, Warcraft 3 chat channels and whatnot and had preferred it over face-to-face (and I still prefer chat over zoom calls!) but as I've gotten older, I started appreciating talking in real life more and more, and now struggle to form connections over chat. I wonder if there are others who are in the same boat.

You cannot compare an open chat, with a strong interest in a particular topic vs you team's Slack channel.

Online games work well, because you have a visual and full engagement.

Compare that to work communications... You are totally async on slack, it's just a simpler version of email at this point. Just because people are online in Slack today, doesn't mean that they'll respond within minutes.

If someone is online playing a game, you know that they're there. Old IRC was pretty much the same.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#515

Senior programmer on management side. Personally when I'm coding, yeah, isolated, distraction free environment is my demand. I'm knocking stuff out, achieving flow state. Anything else I feel frustrated that I'm not performing at my peak. I liken it to brain surgery. You wouldn't expect to be well received if you just pop into the OR to discuss getting new scalpels in the middle of an operation. That being said, it's…

> An individual having the best coding experience is rarely the ideal option for the company

I think a company that wants to keep talent for as long as possible without offering FAANG level salaries should reconsider this position. Hiring is super expensive and risky. If you have good people, you want to keep them. I think offering flexible, meaningful and enjoyable work is a great way to keep people around longer and if it matters to them that they have a space where they can focus, I would give it to them. Creating an environment where they are less happy probably will make them look elsewhere.

That said, I do agree that siloed work comes with a set of issues, but I think there are other solutions to the problem.

> It's also not like we haven't tried to make remote work and other options be successful. The reality is that it's something we can pretty effectively A/B test. The results have been fairly consistent across fields and even companies. Physically collaborative environments yield better and faster results.

I have never heard this and I don't even know how you would measure it. There are so many variables this would affect, not to mention, how do you even measure productivity short and long term? Do you also measure turnover? I don't think we actually know nor do I think results from one place translate over to another. I've done both and both have worked and have had their own set of challenges. My personal take is that hiring good people matters more than whatever setup you have. Remote gives you a bigger pool of people to pick from and is desirable by many, so based on that I think that it can give a very big competitive advantage.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#516

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you don't necessarily realize that some people do need deep work, and prioritize your quick satisfaction to other's focus Surely there must be ways to balance these things? When you want to ask someone a question it shouldn’t be too hard to infer whether it’s a good time to do that now or you should wait (if it is, well it’s exactly a very hard skill to learn if you put in some effort)

I feel like that's exactly what email or pinging someone in a group chat is for, or at least that's how I prefer it. If I'm deeply focused on something else, I'll just ignore the notification, if I'm available I'll respond. Bonus points for just posting it to a team group chat or CC-ing everyone involved so someone else might be able to handle it.

That's no different from being in an office though.

If someone taps me on the shoulder and says they need a few minutes of my time looking over problematic code or whatever, I can say "sure just give me about 15 minutes to finish off this X/Y/Z"

When someone is relegated to doing this over Slack/Teams/whatever, the other person might have their notifications muted and rarely check for new ones. So it could end up being several hours of waiting.

Just because someone checks in with you IRL and asks if you have time to help with a question doesn't mean you need to be interrupted from "flow".

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#517
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If one requires interrupting 6 other people to maintain flow Where is this "6" coming from? Again: 1) You may be incapable of doing work when someone walks next to you, but this is not the case of a lot of people. It's like driving and then going like: 'Gee, when these cars are putting their blinking lights on and it is distracting me, they should all quickly park before I arrive'. 2) My flow is fine, thank you ver…

The “6” is coming from the original comment in the thread.

In my experience, the typical picnic table sized open-plan/hotdesk furniture usually seats six (three per long side) so, in practice, six people seems like the most common group sizing.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#518

Just want to add that I only became (at least in my opinion) a good programmer by sitting next to a very good and passionate one that I was able to question from time to time and may have interrupted his work some days. I also probably helped him brainstorm ideas with me and debugging, since he would just say what's on his mind while doing it, and I'd do the same, and sometimes this kind of ping pong debugging/brains…

The primary means I've seen it happen by is by being part of a team that does pair programming rather than code reviews. In general I've seen it do wonders for team alignment, integration speed, and ramping up new colleagues, junior or otherwise. It does take a concerted effort to learn and do well though. There are best practices, and putting two random programmers behind the same computer does not necessarily mean they'll find and apply those.

I'm curious to see if there's been studies on its efficacy, and whether or not those studies agree with my entirely anecdotal experience.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#519

Senior programmer on management side. Personally when I'm coding, yeah, isolated, distraction free environment is my demand. I'm knocking stuff out, achieving flow state. Anything else I feel frustrated that I'm not performing at my peak. I liken it to brain surgery. You wouldn't expect to be well received if you just pop into the OR to discuss getting new scalpels in the middle of an operation. That being said, it's…

> If the distractions truly cut productivity in half we can double the number of seats. Usually salaries cost more than offices. > Going too far and too fast without focused guidance results in deadtime and technical debt. Focused guidance requires intentional communication. Not hoping people will overhear the right conversations. > It's also not like we haven't tried to make remote work and other options be successf…

> Usually salaries cost more than offices.

Yes, they do. But productivity is not linear.

> Show the data.

I don't have the data, but the reasons behind agile are exactly that - extremely collaborative environment.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#520

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I was junior I shared an office with a senior. I was constantly asking him questions. He pretty much knew everything, I'm not kidding, this guy was amazing. So this arrangement worked out really well for me, but not sure how much he liked having his work interrupted so much. Could be that between the two of us, the benefits averaged out to zero.

This is where headphones can help. Headphones on, don't bother the person or only chat. That was an unwritten rule the last time I worked in an open space.

About half at my last job always had headphones on to be able to concentrate.
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