Live data from Hacker News

Passkeys: The beginning of the end of the password

blog.google

511–520 of 1001 posts

Re: Passkeys: The beginning of the end of the password

#511
post #294

The paragraph in the section, "What are passkeys?" tells me that they: are new, are easier, let me use biometrics, and are resistant to attacks. But, it doesn't tell me what passkeys actually are. Compare passkeys to traditional authentication factors. What's a password? A secret word or phrase that only you know. What are biometrics? Parts of your body that can help uniquely identify you, like your fingerprint or re…

It’s a password that Google controls so when they incorrectly ban you from their services you lose access to literally everything. Or if you drop your phone in a lake you’re out of luck too.

Passkeys are open, so you can for example store them in a Yubikey if you want. Else many password managers will soon support passkeys, for example 1Password or NordPass.

https://www.yubico.com/blog/a-yubico-faq-about-passkeys/ https://nordpass.com/passwordless/ https://www.future.1password.com/passkeys/

Re: Passkeys: The beginning of the end of the password

#512

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What ecosystem lock-in are you talking about, exactly? I just created a passkey for Chrome on my macOS desktop and another on iOS. The Chrome passkey will sync to Chrome for Windows, my iOS passkey will sync to my other Apple devices, and I can create more as needed.

For every platform/ecosystem you are using (Chrome, Apple iCloud), you had to create a new passkey. For people using multiple different devices and platforms, this is a headache. I want to sign up once and be done with it.

> I want to sign up once and be done with it.

Definitely! My understanding is that this is where passkey/password managers enter the picture.

My preferred password manager is 1Password, so once it gets passkey support I imagine I'll use that for everything. Until then, I'm depending on the limited sync functionality in iOS/macOS and Chrome.

Re: Passkeys: The beginning of the end of the password

#513
post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I wonder if there's a fully self hosted passkeys option? If external authenticators work for you, physical keys (like Yubikey, Solokey etc.) are arguably self-hosted! For on-device passkeys, at least Android is preparing an API for this [1]. I hope that iOS will follow at some point, as well as Firefox (which unfortunately has been quite slow to adopt all aspects of WebAuthN). > I'm also opposed to attestation. Wit…

https://connect.mozilla.org/t5/ideas/support-webauthn-passke... This page has a recent comment from a Mozilla employee on Firefox support: 04-24-2023 04:39 AM We are actively working on supporting this feature. Here is our current roadmap (might change): - WebAuthn Level 1 + CTAP2 is riding the trains for Fx 114 - WebAuthn Level 2 + 3 are planned to ride the Fx 116 train - Passkeys (though details are still about to…

Hmm that's nice actually!! Because I only need the first one and perhaps the second, I will not do full passkeys until it becomes possible to self-host it anyway.

I really hope it will come to all platforms though. Not just Windows or Mac but also Linux and BSD.

Re: Passkeys: The beginning of the end of the password

#514
There's no meaningful benefit of this over a password and 2FA authentication for users who are already proactive about security. I also doubt that passkeys will be protected by the fifth amendment the way passwords are, based on the "key vs combination" argument. While I trust Google password manager to help me remember passwords, I don't trust Google or any company to manage them for me.

At their core, passkeys are a easy and nice way to move from passwords to public private key cryptography. And hardware based authentication does allow more security. And by leveraging the hardware-backed keystore and security enclave, you can use your phone the way FIDO keys are already used. But there aren't clear benefits over 2FA and a password.

There are many reasons why I will wait as long as possible, maybe indefinitely before I start using passkeys. The idea of this being tied to Google or any other major company for my logins is not okay. There are many cases of people being locked out of Google accounts without the ability to appeal. With current 2factor, you can control the secrets yourself if you choose to. While it's true that you can't be phished into sharing your passkey as easily, you also lose a lot of convience and flexibility in login management. And it makes login sharing or multi-account management very inconvenient and difficult.

I was hopeful with 2FA rolled out that my accounts would be more secure, but most companies give you very little over which methods of 2FA are allowed or enabled. I don't want to be forced to enroll a phone number just to enable TOTP 2FA. I want to be able to choose between TOTP or HOTP for my accounts. I don't want to be forced to use a 2FA app that doesn't allow me to export and manage the secrets myself. In some ways FIDO keys solve some of those issues, but the hardware security aspect of it contradicts giving the end user the choice to self manage.

https://www.concordlawschool.edu/blog/constitutional-law/fif...

Re: Passkeys: The beginning of the end of the password

#515
post #438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The passkey itself is an encryption key. When you register a passkey to access a site, the component that holds the passkey generates a site-specific asymmetric encryption keypair. It then gives the site the (unencrypted) public key, and the private key encrypted with the passkey. To authenticate, the site sends the client the encrypted private key and a challenge. The client uses the passkey to decrypt the private k…

> The passkey itself is an encryption key. Close - it is a signing key, e.g. used for integrity and authentication > To authenticate, the site sends the client the encrypted private key and a challenge. The client uses the passkey to decrypt the private key, which it then uses to sign the challenge, then it sends the signature back to the site. The site verifies that the signature is valid and then lets you in. This…

I think you're right about discoverability being a key property differentiating Passkeys from WebAuthn credentials, I got that one wrong. I think the other ones would be it's likely syncable across devices, and likely requires some type of user verification.

You're probably right that if an authenticator is supporting discoverability it no longer makes sense to store the encrypted private key with the RP. It's still allowable though[0].

[0] https://www.w3.org/TR/webauthn/#credential-id

Re: Passkeys: The beginning of the end of the password

#516
post #135

WebAuthN is great, but I can't help but feel that Passkeys are actually a step backwards. At least on iOS, there is no way of preventing them from being synced to iCloud, which is the opposite of what I want for high-stakes credentials like bank accounts or government e-signatures. I've tried to raise [1] a related issue (i.e. the inability for relying parties to opt out of credential syncing, if not an explicit requ…

How is this different than a password manager with encrypted cloud backup? Your recourse if someone breaks passkeys is legal, not technical. Security must be a balance with functionality, and this is a huge improvement over passwords. (Tangentially, it would be great if we got cryptographic digital identity cards like Estonia has for signatures but that’s more of a long term goal) Cloud sync (encrypted!) is important…

You have the option to use a non cloud password sync method today. Best of all, that can sync a single password or private key across multiple vendors. This locking down inside bubbles really needs to go for me to want to use passkeys, I don't want to register 3 separate passkeys for each account I want to register 1 and sync them between my devices.

Re: Passkeys: The beginning of the end of the password

#517

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So it's like a private key but you can't access or manage it, as it's owned by Google/Apple/Microsoft? How convenient!

Passkey is an open standard, clients are not limited to Android or IOS devices. You can for example use a Yubikey, on a Linux desktop system, to authenticate to services implementing the "passkey" standard. Does Google own my Yubikey in some way that I'm unaware of? Nothing is owned by Google or Apple or Microsoft, there is no grand conspiracy trying to lock you into a platform. Try educating yourself before spreadin…

[deleted]

Re: Passkeys: The beginning of the end of the password

#518
post #486

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So it's like a private key but you can't access or manage it, as it's owned by Google/Apple/Microsoft? How convenient!

No, hold on. That's not what I implied. My understanding is that the private key is stored on your own device, unless you decide to use something like iCloud Keychain (which should be encrypted). The public key, on the other hand, is stored on the service providers' servers. That is used to create a "challenge", which I guess on your phone you will need to "decrypt/sign" with the private key to prove that "it's reall…

Some devices e.g. Apple have a Secure Enclave that is not user accessible, that's what I'm referring to, I'm not suggesting that they are stored on a server.

Re: Passkeys: The beginning of the end of the password

#519

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So it's like a private key but you can't access or manage it, as it's owned by Google/Apple/Microsoft? How convenient!

Passkey is an open standard, clients are not limited to Android or IOS devices. You can for example use a Yubikey, on a Linux desktop system, to authenticate to services implementing the "passkey" standard. Does Google own my Yubikey in some way that I'm unaware of? Nothing is owned by Google or Apple or Microsoft, there is no grand conspiracy trying to lock you into a platform. Try educating yourself before spreadin…

[deleted]

Re: Passkeys: The beginning of the end of the password

#520
post #294

The paragraph in the section, "What are passkeys?" tells me that they: are new, are easier, let me use biometrics, and are resistant to attacks. But, it doesn't tell me what passkeys actually are. Compare passkeys to traditional authentication factors. What's a password? A secret word or phrase that only you know. What are biometrics? Parts of your body that can help uniquely identify you, like your fingerprint or re…

> What's a password? A secret word or phrase that only you know.

No, a password is a secret word for phrase that both you and the service you want to sign into know.

I don't know how to explain a passkey but at least in this one sense, a passkey is split into a public and private part. The public part is shared, the private part is not. The public part can be verified to match the private part without sharing the private part. Your device stores this private part. When service wants to let you login they ask your device "does this public part match this user's private part?". Your device responds in a way such that the service knows "only someone who has access to the private part could have responded correctly to -should this person be allowed to login'"

Post reply on HN