I'm glad I'm seeing some SAP post on HN frontpage. Why? When my sister started to working at SAP working on documentation, I had to look at some of those. I noticed something like SAPUI5 and thought: hey, this looks pretty modern and nice and something that competes with Microsoft offerings! https://sapui5.hana.ondemand.com/#/topic/8b49fc198bf04b2d980... Then I see them documenting/pushing people in CI/CD direction (…
For all the documentation you see surrounding SAPUI5, it is very incomplete when you have to actually use it do develop something. It is built on top of jQuery and extremely slow. They are very adamant on MVC with two-way databinding (the opposite of React or most other frontend libraries that have been around for almost 10 years). The backend request is geared toward OData (think graphql but table-oriented), and add…
What's SAP, and why's it worth $163B? (2020)
511–520 of 703 posts
Re: What's SAP, and why's it worth $163B? (2020)
#512Earlier quoted context omitted.
Are there any documents supporting this? I ask because I am curious what official documents exist around this idea of mandated return to inefficiency -- there must've been a gain elsewhere (or is that too optimistic)? Plus there must be costs documented associated with the first and second program. Genuinely curious about this type of decision (call it "inefficiency thrash"?).
My (completely speculative) hunch is that they may have been chasing efficiencies beyond the scope of uniforms, or even beyond the scope of the army. For example, the solution may not have worked well with other procurement items and they wanted a single platform. Or the navy already had an SAP contract that could be leveraged without spending money on a separate stand-alone army solution. So it can look like a bad d…
Its always good to call out corruption, but its also important to realize when a situation is actually crazy complex and while its an awesome story might not be worth formulating a summary judgement from.
Re: What's SAP, and why's it worth $163B? (2020)
#513Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is a trust problem. Trust problems don't usually get better when you start hiding more shit. Isn't the real solution to make organizations feel confident that they can let unused funding go because they can get it back in the future if they need it?
It seems more like an incentive problem. I'd be interested to see what happens if you give the deciders X% of any unused budget as an EOY bonus.
It is a trust problem because organizations generally aren't worried about losing money they don't spend that year or the next. They're worried about never getting it back. When you use a ratchet approach to budgets it doesn't allow organizations to respond to responsibilities which may be cyclical in nature. This leads to permanent worst case thinking which leads to hording.
Re: What's SAP, and why's it worth $163B? (2020)
#514Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is a trust problem. Trust problems don't usually get better when you start hiding more shit. Isn't the real solution to make organizations feel confident that they can let unused funding go because they can get it back in the future if they need it?
It seems more like an incentive problem. I'd be interested to see what happens if you give the deciders X% of any unused budget as an EOY bonus.
edit: on the other hand: If I'm going to quit the job next year and I don't like my successor I'm definitely going to cut corners and budget.
Re: What's SAP, and why's it worth $163B? (2020)
#515I think there is great potential for modern ERP frameworks.
Re: What's SAP, and why's it worth $163B? (2020)
#516Earlier quoted context omitted.
The sad thing is that Concur used to be great. It was acquired by SAP and then "SAPified", now it's a nightmare. But it does /exactly/ what the bean counters want, which is to mindlessly and stupidly apply policies against business travelers who are just trying to get their job done.
Concur the software is OK though not great. What is distinctly often not OK is the mandatory fields that companies want, often arbitrary travel policies, and often needlessly nit-picky auditing. If putting in an expense report into Concur typically sailed through unless something was clearly wrong, missing reasonable documentation, or was significantly out of policy, Concur would mostly be fine.
Re: What's SAP, and why's it worth $163B? (2020)
#517Prior to that I was an ERP technical consultant. I've had the opportunity to work with many ERP systems at a deep technical level, on both sides of an implementation: the old system a company was moving off of, and the new system I was implementing.
I'm neither an advocate for, nor detractor of, any particular ERP system. Each offering has things it does well, and each has pain points. Unfortunately a lot of people cargo-cult their particular system of choice and lose objectivity. Software is simply a tool and is far less important than the implementation and execution.
A few SAP aspects that stood out to me from a technical perspective:
1. You are virtually guaranteed to have an existing capability available for any arbitrary business process need
2. The system architecture facilitates efficient data processing. Tables, forms, and reports tend to be narrow slices of an overall business process, and thus can reduce contention and concurrency problems. Batch jobs are utilized for background processing.
3. The user interface is lightweight and very performant over remote connections (e.g. VPN). Similar to older green-screen systems, data entry can be very fast for experienced users and does not rely on the mouse.
4. The API options for enterprise application integration are good
A few SAP pain points I observed: 1. The surface area and complexity to match the capability is crushing. Tesla's relatively vanilla SAP environment had 10,000+ reports and T-Codes in it, of which I would guess less than 1% were actively in use.
2. Optimizing the architecture for scalability came at the expense of the user experience. One would often need to perform several tasks in order to answer a single need. For example, I would observe users exporting several reports, each of which provided a narrow slice of the information, and then combine the dumps in Excel to get the answer they sought.
* For ERPs and complex systems in general:* 1. It is very difficult to find subject matter experts who can deeply understand what a complex system offers out of the box, and successfully select the optimal capabilities and implement them for business processes. Or, in the case of true functional gaps, can modify and extend the system without creating a mess.
2. It is vital that a company retains the people who have the institutional history of a system and its modifications. Many end up with a revolving door of consultants, each of whom may be an expert in the vanilla product but has no company-specific context.
3. Clarity and completeness are at odds with one another. As you attempt to drive a system or specification toward completeness, clarity and understandability will diminish.
4. The longer an ERP system has been around, the more likely it will accumulate legacy and historical impediments. If a product aspect is working and widely deployed it tends not to be changed or updated to modern patterns or technology. An example in SAP is the cluster table concept, which as I recall from the lore some years ago was a workaround because SAP needed more columns per table than Oracle allowed. Cluster tables do not spark joy in data migration and egress when ABAP is not a feasible option.
5. Also for long-lived ERP systems, from the user experience standpoint, as these systems incrementally evolve over time the standardization and consistency of behavior across modules and application areas tends to fade or diverge. AS I recall with SAP for example, some transaction forms and reports can export to Excel, while many others do not: the feature was not or could not be added as part of the architectural core but was instead bolted on later to limited areas. A young ERP typically builds this in as standard core feature which is available on all forms in the product.Re: What's SAP, and why's it worth $163B? (2020)
#518Earlier quoted context omitted.
Concur the software is OK though not great. What is distinctly often not OK is the mandatory fields that companies want, often arbitrary travel policies, and often needlessly nit-picky auditing. If putting in an expense report into Concur typically sailed through unless something was clearly wrong, missing reasonable documentation, or was significantly out of policy, Concur would mostly be fine.
My expense reports in Concur almost always sail through. It shows you warnings if you're missing a receipt or something.
Re: What's SAP, and why's it worth $163B? (2020)
#519One of my many mistakes: SAP wanted to buy our startup and we didn't sell.
Re: What's SAP, and why's it worth $163B? (2020)
#520I worked in public accounting with some major corporations as clients. Every single company I interacted with used SAP. It is the de facto software in its field and is deeply entrenched. Its UX is the most horribly wicked thing I’ve ever come across. We would conduct walkthroughs with process control owners that showed us what they would do in SAP to perform their job functions, and it would take multiple, intelligen…
There are two major ERP software out there right now: SAP and Peoplesoft. SAP is the "European" way of doing things, which means there's one right way and you need to align your business to SAP's way of doing things. If you do that, things work very well. Peoplesoft is the "American" way of doing it, which means that you make your software fit around you. This means a lot of customizations. This makes integrations mu…