Why we ignore thousands of daily car crashes • Hacker News Board

Re: Why we ignore thousands of daily car crashes

#511

Post by Schroedingersat » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 10:35 PM UTC

mywittyname wrote: post #105

"We" don't ignore them. Every major government has a body dedicated entirely to automobile safety. In the USA, this is NHSTA - National Highway Safety & Transportation Administration. They maintain an information system of traffic fatality statistics in the USA, called FARS (fatality analysis reporting system). This system is used to determine new safety devices and standards for vehicles and to test their effectiven…

Those bodies routinely enforce road widening and other measures in residential areas that make things grossly more dangerous.

They also have explicit tradeoffs between the changes they make and deaths, proving the article's point.

Plus the guidelines often prioritise speed as an end goal rather than caring about throughput, or the fact that it should be a quiet residential street.

Plus the destruction of transit.

Spending just as much as safe, accessible transport would cost on road widening projects and barely keeping deaths under a high self-declared threshold isn't prioritising safety.

Re: Why we ignore thousands of daily car crashes

#512

Post by jrkatz » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 10:37 PM UTC

pdonis wrote: post #273

flaque wrote: post #96

There’s an audio version of the same point here: https://podcast.strongtowns.org/e/the-drip-drip-drip-of-traf... A ”best effort” summary of this article: if thousands of people die in once place, it’s one of the great tragedies in American history. However if thousands of people die in thousands different places, it is ignored and considered a fact of life. When a plane or train crashes, we stop everything and redesi…

> A ”best effort” summary of this article: if thousands of people die in once place, it’s one of the great tragedies in American history. However if thousands of people die in thousands different places, it is ignored and considered a fact of life. My summary is different: if thousands of people die because the government specifically puts them in harm's way but doesn't give them the best available protection against…

> lock their car and take them to the police station and let them contact someone from there. But don't force them to pay a fine or go to court if they haven't caused harm.

Supposing at least some drunk drivers are aware they are drunk but fully convinced they will not harm anyone, this improves their worst case scenario substantially. Before, losing their license; now, getting even closer to home before calling a ride. Does this incentivize drunk driving among people unable to evaluate the danger they present to others (e.g., drunks)?

Obviously, this falls apart somewhat because those same people probably drive drunk today thinking they won't get caught. Nonetheless, the common consensus is that certainty of punishment is the primary deterrent against criminal activity. Certain non-punishment will change some of the calculus.

Re: Why we ignore thousands of daily car crashes

#513

Post by dbrueck » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 10:37 PM UTC

No need to overcomplicate it: we ignore it because it's not that common.

I mean, for every one person that dies in a car accident in the U.S., 16 die from heart disease and look at how good we are (collectively) at not really tackling that as a source of deaths!

Re: Why we ignore thousands of daily car crashes

#514

Post by notch656a » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 10:38 PM UTC

powerhour wrote: post #458

fumeux_fume wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Believe it or not, cleaning dead bodies off the road everyday has a cost.

A cost borne by others, in fact.

Forcing manufacturers to put in a seatbelt in cars is a cost born by others for something many of them never wanted, forced on them by people who legislate not only having seat belts in their own car but installed in every car.

Re: Why we ignore thousands of daily car crashes

#515

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 10:38 PM UTC

pkulak wrote: post #441

WalterBright wrote: post #404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the things I don't like about free health care is it comes with the notion that the government should force you to do things to reduce those costs.

The alternative is letting people die on the street who may not be able to pay. No developed country will ever have a health care system that shifts 100% of costs to the individual.

[deleted]

Re: Why we ignore thousands of daily car crashes

#516

Post by jacquesm » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 10:40 PM UTC

naasking wrote: post #304

flaque wrote: post #96

There’s an audio version of the same point here: https://podcast.strongtowns.org/e/the-drip-drip-drip-of-traf... A ”best effort” summary of this article: if thousands of people die in once place, it’s one of the great tragedies in American history. However if thousands of people die in thousands different places, it is ignored and considered a fact of life. When a plane or train crashes, we stop everything and redesi…

> A ”best effort” summary of this article: if thousands of people die in once place, it’s one of the great tragedies in American history. However if thousands of people die in thousands different places, it is ignored and considered a fact of life. But that makes sense statistically, because those are thousands of ostensibly independent events that don't necessarily have a single common cause, where the massacre of a…

But these have a common cause. Cars.

Re: Why we ignore thousands of daily car crashes

#517

Post by MichaelCollins » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 10:40 PM UTC

Enginerrrd wrote: post #417

bsder wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. For example, how many buildings have UV sterilized return air, now? A tiny, tiny fraction. And this would benefit us for way more than just Covid.

Honestly, I don't think UV return air would work as well as you think. The real solution is increased ventilation rates. UV bulbs are expensive (and invisible unless you get to poke around a buildings mechanical room.), they need to be replaced typically ~annually (they won't be). If they get dust on them, they don't work as well. Etc. etc. And here's the issue: To actually deal with high concentration infectious aer…

I think opening up windows is the answer, but that would mean accepting either a loss of climate control, or greatly increased energy costs. (I'd prefer the former, in all but the absolute hottest summer days or the deadliest cold.)

Re: Why we ignore thousands of daily car crashes

#518

Post by notch656a » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 10:41 PM UTC

magicalhippo wrote: post #477

notjustanymike wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because even 40,000 people is only a lot relatively. It is just 0.012% of the American population and 0.00051% of the world population.

Still, it's an order of magnitude above what we see in Norway for example, around 12 per 100k population vs around 1.8 per 100k population. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_vehicle_fatality_rate_in... https://www.ssb.no/transport-og-reiseliv/landtransport/stati... (car fatalities) https://www.ssb.no/befolkning/folketall/statistikk/befolknin... (population)

Fatalities are more usefully measured per mile not per person. For instance, in many 3rd world countries the roads are notoriously unsafe but the average person covers few enough miles that their road fatality rate per capital looks better.

Note this applies to OP posted above you as well.

Re: Why we ignore thousands of daily car crashes

#519

Post by Drunk_Engineer » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 10:43 PM UTC

MontyCarloHall wrote: post #435

Drunk_Engineer wrote: post #416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Europe is now mandating intelligent speed limiters, so I don't know what you are getting on about.

No, they are not. Cars must alert the driver if they are exceeding the speed limit, but there is no forced limiting. https://jalopnik.com/no-europe-didnt-just-force-automakers-t...

Many expect the EU to eventually remove override capabilities as the systems become more widespread.

Re: Why we ignore thousands of daily car crashes

#520

Post by hunterb123 » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 10:43 PM UTC

Nition wrote: post #478

staticautomatic wrote: post #422

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Generally those things are helpful but I think China has pretty well demonstrated that there’s no alternative universe where fully locking everything down eliminates Covid.

It worked for us in New Zealand. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ When we tried the same thing a second time it didn't work, but that was due to people not following the rules.

That's what the government says when they fail, they blame the people.

It's your fault for not following orders, not our fault.