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“No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels

bmj.com

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Re: “No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels

#511

Post by DigiDigiorno »

throwawayacc2 wrote: post #413

I have a theory which I can’t substantiate, just anecdotes and conversations I had throughout the years. But, I’m convinced a lot of depression/anxiety stems from thinking too much and that in turn is caused by an ever complex word with looser and looser guidelines or norms. I’m not making judgements weather this is necessarily good or bad but rather observing. In the past, even as recent as the 50s but certainly bef…

". . . I’m convinced a lot of depression/anxiety stems from thinking too much . . ."

Sertraline (Zoloft) is used to treat both depression and/or OCD. The dosages overlap too (OCD usually is a higher dosage I believe). It is also used to treat anxiety.

I suspect there is a causal chain that goes like: compulsively thinking > anxiety > depression/suicide. I'm not sure how preventing reuptake of serotonin prevents compulsive thinking, but I suspect the mechanism is closer to preventing the thinking aspect and the other feelings are further down the causal chain.

I am not an expert and I have only read a couple papers due to someone in my life taking Sertraline and having it reduce their OCD. (I thought it was only for depression based on my lay opinion)

If anyone has read anything interesting about the thinking aspect, please share links!

Re: “No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels

#512

Post by hammyhavoc »

zasdffaa wrote: post #471
jack_pp wrote: post #451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the solution is prescribing something that has a lot of unpleasant side-effects for a lot of people? Medication that if you don't take will have SEVERE withdrawal symptoms?

I wonder why you say 'SEVERE' so severely. It doesn't sound like you have any direct experience of this. I had to come off them and it wasn't a problem. My biggest fear, and it was huge, was that the depression would return. It didn't.

Anecdotal. n+1.

Re: “No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels

#513

Post by SkyPuncher »

d0mine wrote: post #509
SkyPuncher wrote: post #502

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People who make treatment decisions based on financials and kickbacks are not going to care about all this "science" and "logic" and "statistics" stuff where their wallet is concerned. Can you elaborate on who these people are? You're casting a wide net here. My partner works in mental health. The reality I've observed is mental health is incredibly challenging. Much of it is highly situational and requires hours a…

> medications are highly cost/effective.. You are commenting on the article that says that it is BS. The most upvoted comment on the article at the moment says "it [the ineffectiveness] is old news hardly worth mentioning"

No, the article does not say this is BS. The article is about a specific theory on anti-depressants. Not about their ineffectiveness as a whole.

> Antidepressants are an effective, NICE recommended treatment for depression

This fact remains. It's pretty well known in medicine that we don't really know why anti-depressants work, but they do. Different people react differently to different versions.

This article is simply stating that the original "simple" theory of "low serotonin" is not sufficient to explain depression.

Re: “No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels

#514

Post by missedthecue »

smm11 wrote: post #507

I believe Vitamin D, sunshine itself, and not endlessly 'sitting around' can do wonders, too.

I wonder if the number of people regularly smoking pot and the number of people describing themselves as depressed have anything to do with each other. Both are lines straight up and to the right over the past 40 years.

Re: “No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels

#515

Post by hammyhavoc »

AlwaysRock wrote: post #510
rustybelt wrote: post #432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Similarly, I don't think we're equipped for the level of exposure to life-altering tragedy that mass/social media makes available. I swear my wife subscribes to a dedicated "small child dies in horrible freak accident" facebook feed. She is constantly sharing these types of stories with me from around the world. Logically, I know that these are actually extremely rare events, but the constant exposure still makes us…

Good lord. I try to tell folks all the time that to some extend you have to ignore news. Big world events are going to find their way to you. Russian invading Ukraine is going to end up being something you hear about regardless if you follow the news at all. The tragic stories of children getting bombed in Ukraine? The photos? The gory details? That likely is only waiting for you if you go searching for it. I'm not a…

I dunno about that. I know several doom-and-gloom mongers who seem to get off on sharing the woes of the world in group conversations. As a result, I've barely used Facebook or any kind of social media since the pandemic began. Quite literally, haven't used it this year except to post an interview.

Re: “No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels

#516

Post by missedthecue »

JamesBarney wrote: post #172
emodendroket wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've heard plenty of people involved in mental health care themselves lament the fact that they're often just trying to happy-talk people who genuinely have harrowing lives. I don't think the notion is absurd.

The idea that a terrible life can cause depression is not the limb he's going out on. It's the idea that somehow depression is caused by being way more exploited than our ancestors in the 1700's who were working on someone else's farms and factories as children is the limb he's going out on.

You don't need to go back to the 1700s to find comparatively low levels of depression. The 1980s will do.

Re: “No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels

#517

Post by o_nate »

Workaccount2 wrote: post #397
nth_order wrote: post #335

Yeah, but thats hardly news, we have known that for decades. Otherwise direct serotonin releasers would be the most useful ADs. But these mostly give people nausea and serotonin syndrome. ADs work mostly by being FIASMAs, reducing inflammation and oxidative stress, increasing neurogenesis and neuroplasticity, increasing the activity of other monoaminergic systems, and the serotonergic portion is mostly explained by d…

Anytime I learn about bodily functions I become more and more aware of how shit it's engineering is. Works amazing, sure, but try and fix or debug anything? Good luck.

I guess we should be grateful our brains are complex enough to understand anything. Maybe it's too much to ask to ask them to be able to understand themselves. They would need to get more complex to understand themselves, but then that complexity would make them more difficult to understand. It's the snake trying to swallow its own tail.

Re: “No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels

#518

Post by root_axis »

kemiller wrote: post #478
moth-fuzz wrote: post #463

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a friend that's convinced that her ADHD 'causes depression' because her brain does not produce 'enough dopamine'. I'm noticing more and more among my peers a mythology around brain chemicals that's about as accurate as the four humors but with a scientific-sounding veneer. All brain function (and thus all bodily function, because the brain is the whole person /s) can be traced back to the presence or absence o…

I think ADHD causes depression because you get constant negative feedback from (many) teachers & bosses.

IMO, this hypothesis doesn't pass the smell test. One of the defining qualities of clinical depression is that personal success in life does not obviate the symptoms; there are many widely know examples of beloved and successful people being unable to overcome the burden of crushing depression.

Re: “No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels

#519

Post by rustybelt »

N1H1L wrote: post #440
rustybelt wrote: post #434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you saying God likes to yeet buggy unmaintainable spaghetti code directly into production?

DNA is spaghetti code exemplified. We are carried around tons of dead viral DNA for example - what amounts to shipping code with older code commented out.

I'm using this argument in my next code review meeting.

Re: “No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels

#520

Post by rustybelt »

rustybelt wrote: post #434
Workaccount2 wrote: post #397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anytime I learn about bodily functions I become more and more aware of how shit it's engineering is. Works amazing, sure, but try and fix or debug anything? Good luck.

Are you saying God likes to yeet buggy unmaintainable spaghetti code directly into production?

Or maybe this reality is actually a dev environment.
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