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Amazon spending $465M on season 1 of The Lord of the Rings series

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Re: Amazon spending $465M on season 1 of The Lord of the Rings series

#511
post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Numenor alone has enough to make a good series - you've got epic characters, great events, powerful kings, beauty, love, treachery, doom, magic, battles, betrayal and ruin. I've seen decent series done on much less than that.

So agree, its such a tragic story, the people of Numenor had life so good, until Sauron tricked them into throwing it all away. For me it was one of Tolkien's strongest stories and I always felt like it should have major screen time as it was a truly epic tale.

I'm really surprised they didn't try to milk the Silmarillion (I've heard rumors of not being able to get the rights or something), because those tales are detailed enough to tell you how the plot goes, but sparse enough that you could write in tons of things if you wanted to.

Re: Amazon spending $465M on season 1 of The Lord of the Rings series

#512
post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The hit Warner Bros. sitcom from the 90s, Friends, is still a big moneymaker for the studio with average earnings that are estimated to be roughly a billion dollars per year. Keep in mind that this is a show that ended nearly 15 years ago. Beyond all imagination, this is still one of the most-watched sitcoms in 2017. I know, hard to believe. https://reelrundown.com/tv/How-Much-Money-Does-US-Sitcom-Fri...

I specifically mentioned Friends and Seinfeld as exceptions. Mad Men is never going to have this status. Friends viewership numbers were 10x, even Sopranos had 2-3x viewership. And there will be no nostalgia factor there.

And even if it DOES become evergreen, it's like Disney kid shows - sent to live in whatever monthly app (Prime in this case) to rot and die; there's not much realized revenue from them, the way syndication has.

Re: Amazon spending $465M on season 1 of The Lord of the Rings series

#514

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it possible the reason it ended so badly is the same reason they ran out of material? It's been 11 years since the last ASOIAF novel. I think GRRM may have written himself into a corner and is unsure how to tie up all the threads and satisfactorily end the series.

> It's been 11 years since the last ASOIAF novel. To put this in context: All 9 books of The Expanse were written during this period along with a six season TV show based on the same material. The two writers were involved in both actively. I've 100% given up on ever seeing how ASOIAF ends. Same with Rothfuss's Kingkiller, it's been 11 years and I stopped caring during the previous decade

Sure, but Expanse also ended on a weak season.

Re: Amazon spending $465M on season 1 of The Lord of the Rings series

#515

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are "established actors", if Michael McElhatton is the standard we're using, in the new show. Sean Bean was the biggest draw in GoT and was gone after the first season. When we're quibbling over the resumes of character actors, we've conceded the main point, which is that GoT didn't use star power to attract its following.

I'm not quibbling over anything. I disagree with "Unheard of actors is generally a good thing when doing a new series" and the logic provided. It's just ridiculous on its face. Generally, people with more experience produce better results. Generally, people who have a history of producing better results produce better results. Who would have thought?

That's wildly not the case in the performing arts; just, like, a crazy thing to say. Stars get cast over and over again because audiences are comforted by familiar faces, not because the stars themselves are somehow the best actors in the world. Ben Affleck is a leading man, for Christ's sake.

Re: Amazon spending $465M on season 1 of The Lord of the Rings series

#516
post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Huge LOTR/Tolkien fan ever since I was a kid, loved the Ralph Bakashi animated LOTR film from the 70's(great rotoscoping and creepy mood), absolutely loved the Peter Jackson trilogy, liked the hobbit animated films Rankin and Bass(good music!, weird animation?), even found enjoyment in the newer Hobbit trilogy(3 movies for 1 small book? Smaug was great though!). After seeing this amazon trailer though I am beyond dis…

Unheard of actors is generally a good thing when doing a new series: there isn't really a series where it's felt like a good thing that it was being initially run as "starring ". If they're any good at all (and most actors are absolutely fine) then they'll be good. The CGI on the other hand I agree though I can put my finger on exactly the issue: the virtual sets "feel" small in the footage I've seen. There's a certa…

Idk. I don’t think most actors are fine. It doesn’t take much skill to pass suspension of disbelief that they’re not acting. It takes a lot of skill to be an engaging character.

Severance comes to mind as a good show that is immediately more appealing to me due to Adam Scott

Re: Amazon spending $465M on season 1 of The Lord of the Rings series

#517
post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Huge LOTR/Tolkien fan ever since I was a kid, loved the Ralph Bakashi animated LOTR film from the 70's(great rotoscoping and creepy mood), absolutely loved the Peter Jackson trilogy, liked the hobbit animated films Rankin and Bass(good music!, weird animation?), even found enjoyment in the newer Hobbit trilogy(3 movies for 1 small book? Smaug was great though!). After seeing this amazon trailer though I am beyond dis…

Besides Sean Bean — who was far from A-list — how many of the Games of Thrones cast were well-known? Jason Momoa and Pedro Pascal, who’ve probably had the most post-GoT success so far (and who were two of the most popular/memorable characters on GoT), didn’t have widespread recognition before GoT.

Good question, Like you mentioned, Sean Bean(very well known from goldeneye and LOTR), Lena Hedley was known for her terminator work, Peter Dinklage(Elf, Nip/Tuck), and lets not forget Natalie Dormer(playing Anne Boylen on the tudors, a popular TV series a few years before GOT). Basically if you watched popular scifi/historical shows/movies these characters(some) were well known.

Re: Amazon spending $465M on season 1 of The Lord of the Rings series

#518
post #296

This is going to be a disaster, Like GoT Season 8 level diaster. Mark my words. My reasoning: 1. The budget for the original LOTR trilogy was $281 million [1]. Obviously there's inflation but we're also talking film vs TV. Films tend to be much more expensive to produce to the point where only theatrical releases tend to make films economical; 2. The showrunners are JD Vance and Patrick McKay. If you check their IMDB…

I don't think Jackson understood LOTR--I agree with Christopher Tolkein's criticism of the movies, although I do personally enjoy them, and I don't think you're "wrong" for liking them. I'll explain my take:

As I am sure you are aware, Tolkein was a classic British academic, like James Herriot was in veterinary medicine. He had a fierce and deep fondness for England and all of the colonizers that contributed to the English identity and and nation via art, migration, and war, primarily focusing on the pagans, the Norse, the Danes, and the Germans (the "Saxon" in Anglo-Saxon is from areas very close to Germany, Belgium, and the Netherlands). If you ever read James Herriot's memoirs, you'll hear a lot of similar admiration for the distinct English sub-cultures and the unique dialects, practices, personalities, and looks they had based on their conquering ancestors and their subsequent evolution.

As C. Tolkein complained, Jackson turned the IP into an action-spectacle that glorified war and battle. This doesn't initially make sense as a criticism, given that the novels center around a a massive war, but more investigation clears the matter up. LOTR was not military-forward because Tolkein loved war and action, but because he understood that the English identity was first and foremost a martial creation by the competition of unique cultures with long traditions of mythology and fairy tales, and it would be foolish to examine and display those cultures without the addition of warfare. A massive, ongoing war was the most convenient and English way to present his created cultures and languages, and he took the concept of honor and fealty between sub-nations very seriously. The England of Tolkein's youth educated their children that way, too; the history of England was taught to children as a series of battles that bookended reigns by different nobles. (This is supported by the childhood school memories of other famous English authors like Orwell and Dahl.)

So LOTR is actually a sort of mythical folk ethnography of northwestern Europe, with a primary focus on a mythical England as its center. It is not a clean 1:1 map (you can't just say "Dwarves = Germans"), but there are extremely obvious parallels. Hobbits are like English country folk, Elves are Scandinavian roving royalty, the Rohan horsemen are like mixtures of Steppe raiders and northern Scots.

A good example of how Jackson failed to understand Tolkein's creation was through his treatment of the hobbits. In the novels, the hobbits are crafty, industrious folk, who have the same eccentricities as the intelligent and cultured (but also petty and simple-minded) denizens of Tolkein's English country. The hobbits in the text are an ancient culture who perform long feats of academic genealogy, farm, distill, and are well-read and "mature" as we might compare them to modern humans--Tolkein's joke is that despite acting as landholding businessmen, scholars, and tradesmen, the main foursome are considered immature as compared to other hobbits.

Jackson, on the other hand, treats them primarily as drunken, silly teenaged sideshow halflings. His portrayal is very funny and I am fond of it, but he completely misses the gravitas of the Shire as he lays it out in the Fellowship of the Ring. The novel-hobbits are a functioning proto-industrial agricultural civilization with their own myths, narratives, political factions, and warfare (just like the real-life residents of the English countryside), but the movie-hobbits are funny hillbillies with pretty architecture, with some exceptions like Bilbo.

This theme of "complex martial culture reduced to laughs and action scenes" is common through all three movies, and it stretches through all of the cultures that Jackson portrayed. I think the most egregious casualty is in Return of the King, when the noble chivalry, restrained capacity for violence, and scholarship of Faramir is replaced with a silly "temptation of an inferior man" plotline, which to me shows that Jackson lacked the ability to take Tolkein's ideas really seriously. If you don't believe me, watch the Faramir scenes in the movie, and then go back in the book and read them. Novel-Faramir is a paragon of virtue, an intelligent, shrewd, and principled man who refuses to compromise his principles for the glory of Gondor, but also remains loyal to his father, as would be expected of a son of means and nobility in a battle-tested patriarchal culture.

That said, I do enjoy the movies and I don't think you're wrong for liking them. Jackson did an excellent job with the art, music, geography, character relations, military scenes, heroism, and pacing. I simply don't think he understood the underlying soul of the novels.

Re: Amazon spending $465M on season 1 of The Lord of the Rings series

#519

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Besides Sean Bean — who was far from A-list — how many of the Games of Thrones cast were well-known? None A-list, obviously, but (in no particular order) Lena Headey, Iain Glenn, Natalie Dormer, Peter Dinklage, Nicolaj Coster-Waldau, & Charles Dance, arguably.

Game of Thrones was packed with a murderer's row of character actors from British stage and screen.

Yeah, it probably explains why a lot of Americans had not heard about them.

Re: Amazon spending $465M on season 1 of The Lord of the Rings series

#520
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And we all know how it ended once they ran out of his material. Yes, I'm still salty.

Is it possible the reason it ended so badly is the same reason they ran out of material? It's been 11 years since the last ASOIAF novel. I think GRRM may have written himself into a corner and is unsure how to tie up all the threads and satisfactorily end the series.

I do think GRRM is struggling to tease the rest of the story out, but I don't think that was the problem at all with GOT. The key plot points were all basically fine. It just all felt so rushed and totally unconvincing. Daenerys going mad and Bran ending up on the throne are reasonable enough directions to take the plot, but the show completely failed to develop either of those things, so when they did happen it just felt forced and not believable.

They also did a bunch of other annoying/bad things that deviated from the early seasons (bringing along a bunch of nameless characters on adventures to just to kill them, wardrobe and makeup went in a frankly absurd direction for no obvious reason, emphasis shifted to "wow" moments in episodes instead of paced out plot, just dropped a bunch of story lines that were interesting, etc).

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