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The Coming Food Catastrophe

economist.com

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Re: The Coming Food Catastrophe

#511

Post by ornornor »

abandonliberty wrote: post #486
metta2uall wrote: post #476

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When scientists take all the complex factors into account and do the sums it turns out that in general plant-based foods are still far more sustainable than livestock, e.g. https://theconversation.com/climate-explained-how-the-climat...

I haven't seen one of these that takes major factors into account. Tires and pet food contain animals. Animal by-products are used everywhere. Switching away would require replacements. Replacements would become more efficient with economy of scale, but initial switching costs will be high. Some replacements, like food for our obligate-carnivore cats, might not be possible. Simplest example: Beyond meat is 2-4x the p…

Solar and wind energy used to be multiple times more expensive than other more polluting methods. And yet they’re now much cheaper and going down every year.

We developed a vaccine against Covid in less than two years, which we previously thought to be impossible to do.

If we really tried, the problems you mentioned would have a sizable chance of being solved.

Re: The Coming Food Catastrophe

#512

Post by bigDinosaur »

OrvalWintermute wrote: post #347
Scoundreller wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where do other beans/pulses fit in vs meat?

Some beans can be large sources of anti-nutrients [1] . Because over consumption of anti-nutrient foods can seriously impact your overall health, it is important to think about when getting a balanced diet. Another example is soy, which has been studied some [2] . The problem is with longterm vegans that consume a huge amount of soy over a long term. [1] https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/anti-nutrients/ [2…

What's the problem with vegans consuming soy long term? Your second link talks about soy fairly positively and your first link only mentions soy once in the context of a lot of other foods (and really it's rare for a food to be purely good, e.g. lots of plants contain toxins). Based on those links I'd probably conclude soy consumption is very far down my list of foods to be concerned about.

There's even this quote: "Studies on vegetarians who eat diets high in plant foods containing anti-nutrients do not generally show deficiencies in iron and zinc, so the body may be adapting to the presence of anti-nutrients by increasing the absorption of these minerals in the gut." indicating that it may not be a real problem to eat foods that contain these 'anti-nutrients'.

Re: The Coming Food Catastrophe

#513

Post by Guthur »

ImPostingOnHN wrote: post #505
Guthur wrote: post #501

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If everyone is so united in opposition why are they still buying the oil and gas (paying in Rubles)? If they're so together why did Turkey block Sweden and Finland joining Nato. If the unifying petrodollar still binds us all why is Saudi considering Yuan. If they had any sort of plan that would save Ukrainians why is it taking months to enact?

>If everyone is so united in opposition why are they still buying the oil and gas (paying in Rubles)? Are you asking this in good faith, as in, you do not know, and wish to learn? Or did you mean to say, "I think that a majority of countries are not united in opposition to russia, and I submit as evidence that russian energy sales are not zero" ?

Ah no. Maybe I'm just stupid, so please explain to me how all the European countries that are so united in solidatary with Ukraine can square the round hole of also paying Russia vast sums of money for energy?

Re: The Coming Food Catastrophe

#514

Post by steve_adams_86 »

asah wrote: post #475
Jensson wrote: post #418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never seen anything like that and I've kept rice around for years as well. Do you live in a poor country where they don't have proper food protection agencies? If things like that hatched in food people bought from stores that would make the news, I've seen it in the news before so it can't happen that often.

Can confirm both: I've gotten lucky with some batches and unlucky with others. Unlucky is quite nasty, but maybe extra protein? /s

This reminds me of something I read in Discover magazine around 20 years ago.

The gist of it was that immigrants in western Europe from various countries in Africa had developed nutritional deficiencies after immigrating. It appeared their diets were the same, perhaps better on paper, so it wasn't clear why their health was deteriorating.

It turned out that these people had diets rich in unwashed greens and vegetables, and they were likely consuming far more beneficial bacteria, insects, and minerals in their diets. They continued their mostly-vegetarian diets in Europe, but were no longer benefitting from what tended to accompany their foods before.

Not sure why I remember that. Regardless, we should all be eating dirt and weevils.

Re: The Coming Food Catastrophe

#515

Post by geoka9 »

yucky wrote: post #441
greenglass wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would they be motivated to do that? If I were Ukraine, I would do all I could to exacerbate global food shortages. If I were the United States, I might consider how massive aid packages interact with various incentives along these lines. Supposedly the aid is help get around the sea blockade. Every cost is a negotiation.

Quite the opposite. The best move for the US would be to let Ukraine fall, which would re-stabilize food and fuel prices.

Yes, give Russia another weapon (in addition to gas used to influence decision makers in much of Europe) to wield upon the world.

Re: The Coming Food Catastrophe

#516

Post by swader999 »

wott wrote: post #246
sbf501 wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is really hard, I had four 8x4 raised beds (all I could fit) for 5 years. The amount of space and time it takes to produce enough food to replace actual meals for more than just a few times in the summer is absolutely astonishing (unless you like squash all the time). I grew tomatoes, kale, squash, onions, lettuce and peppers. It tasted great, and got some salads and side dishes out of it, but that was about it.…

You don't need a community effort or astonishingly vast land to grow potatoes :-) What I mean by that is that the choice of stuff you grow matters. Lettuce, peppers (and one might add tomatoes) won't feed you much indeed. They are however indeed interesting in small spaces when you don't expect them to feed you but to provide you nice, fresh extras. I mean, I produce about 800 lbs of vegetables by spending 20 mn a da…

This! I spend about four to six days in a similar garden each summer. Automate the watering. Kids do the weeding. Need to figure out a root cellar.

Re: The Coming Food Catastrophe

#517

Post by metta2uall »

abandonliberty wrote: post #486
metta2uall wrote: post #476

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When scientists take all the complex factors into account and do the sums it turns out that in general plant-based foods are still far more sustainable than livestock, e.g. https://theconversation.com/climate-explained-how-the-climat...

I haven't seen one of these that takes major factors into account. Tires and pet food contain animals. Animal by-products are used everywhere. Switching away would require replacements. Replacements would become more efficient with economy of scale, but initial switching costs will be high. Some replacements, like food for our obligate-carnivore cats, might not be possible. Simplest example: Beyond meat is 2-4x the p…

I haven't seen a study deeply analyzing non-food uses either. I suspect though that while there will indeed be replacement costs they will be less than the costs of continuing the current system.

Michellin apparently already makes "vegan" tyres. Even for cat food, there are already vegan supplements and the science will improve. Beyond Meat being only 2x the price of killed meat is I think quite impressive when you consider how long each industry has had to optimise.

Yes switching from cows to chickens is better with regards to carbon but the problem is it's much worse with regards to animal welfare since many more animals need to be killed per kilo of meat..

There could be an optimal level of meat consumption if you just consider the environment, but it's far below what we're doing now, and given the urgent climate action that's recommended by expert scientists, it seems wise to reduce this consumption as much as possible. We're _far_ more likely to reduce too slowly than too quickly..

Re: The Coming Food Catastrophe

#518

Post by ImPostingOnHN »

Guthur wrote: post #513
ImPostingOnHN wrote: post #505

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If everyone is so united in opposition why are they still buying the oil and gas (paying in Rubles)? Are you asking this in good faith, as in, you do not know, and wish to learn? Or did you mean to say, "I think that a majority of countries are not united in opposition to russia, and I submit as evidence that russian energy sales are not zero" ?

Ah no. Maybe I'm just stupid, so please explain to me how all the European countries that are so united in solidatary with Ukraine can square the round hole of also paying Russia vast sums of money for energy?

explain to you because you do not know, and wish to learn, and thus you are asking in good faith?

or "explain", as in you think the majority of countries are not united in opposition to russia, and you would like to advance this claim?

I want to be clear here, I am all for sharing knowledge, so if you need an explanation because you don't know, and don't just plan to argue, please say so and I will share all I can, what little it may be

Re: The Coming Food Catastrophe

#519

Post by Mikeb85 »

abandonliberty wrote: post #486
metta2uall wrote: post #476

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When scientists take all the complex factors into account and do the sums it turns out that in general plant-based foods are still far more sustainable than livestock, e.g. https://theconversation.com/climate-explained-how-the-climat...

I haven't seen one of these that takes major factors into account. Tires and pet food contain animals. Animal by-products are used everywhere. Switching away would require replacements. Replacements would become more efficient with economy of scale, but initial switching costs will be high. Some replacements, like food for our obligate-carnivore cats, might not be possible. Simplest example: Beyond meat is 2-4x the p…

> There's likely an optimal level of meat consumption.

Just going to go out on a limb and say the optimal level is probably less than the typical North American or European diet... Societies that are more resource constrained eat a lot less meat.

Re: The Coming Food Catastrophe

#520

Post by SkyMarshal »

Jensson wrote: post #418
SkyMarshal wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What he said is generally true [1], so you must have either stored your rice in an environment that prevented them from hatching, or got lucky. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rice_weevil

I've never seen anything like that and I've kept rice around for years as well. Do you live in a poor country where they don't have proper food protection agencies? If things like that hatched in food people bought from stores that would make the news, I've seen it in the news before so it can't happen that often.

The eggs don't hatch right away, can take months or years, but most people buy rice to eat right now, not to stockpile, so it's mostly consumed before the weevils hatch. And when they do, it's just a known nuisance, not worth reporting.
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