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California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

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Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#511

Post by legerdemain »

diffeomorphism wrote: post #504
legerdemain wrote: post #490

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds like it requires a high-school math sequence that prepares students for college calculus, doesn't it? Edit: You hardly contradicted me. My claim was that the math requirements of non-engineering science majors were 0-2 semesters of calculus and a course on statistical methods. You added combinatorics, which I usually just see taught as part of that applied methods course, rather than a stand-alone semeste…

That completely contradicts your point. > my claim was.. No, it wasn't, but nice try.

You can literally read what I claimed, verbatim, a couple messages above. Please do!

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#512

Post by Const-me »

todd8 wrote: post #496

Like many readers of HN, I've taken a lot of math over the years--at least 25 semester long courses at the university level. So I have well informed opinions about what works and what doesn't work for me ; schools, on the other hand, have to educate everyone. This, perhaps, accounts for the wide range of opinions being expressed here. I think that we can agree that the whatever they are doing in the United States isn…

> Why not pick, say, the top four countries, (recently South Korea, Japan, Switzerland, and the Netherlands) and adopt their methods that are working?

The critically important part of their method is funding of schools being independent from wealth of the kids’ parents.

I’m not sure US can adopt that; American voters view that method as communism.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#513

Post by Eelongate »

candybar wrote: post #398
Eelongate wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This policy has nothing to do with the topic of algebra. This is code for advanced math, because algebra is typically considered advanced for I sincerely hope you're not serious about this. I took algebra in 7th grade and I was considered a remedial student with habitually poor grades. If you're telling me I was actually 2 years advanced by present standards, then the situation in California must be deteriorating s…

Did you take standard high-school Algebra 1 in 7th grade? Algebraic concepts are often taught as early as 3rd grade, but much of it is considered pre-Algebra.

> standard high-school Algebra

I didn't take Algebra in highschool, so.. maybe? 5th and 6th grade were called Pre-Algebra. 7th and 8th were Algebra. 9th was Geometry, 10th was Trig, and 11th and 12th were Calc.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#514

Post by moksly »

eggy wrote: post #464
moksly wrote: post #212

I’m Danish and not at all interested in the politics of it, but there can be a case for teaching algebra late. We do it in Denmark, because it’s the subject children have the hardest time learning, and having too many of them fail too early kills their interest in math. We still teach algebra in grade 7-9, but we’ve gone through the social experiments of teaching it at different ages, and have lost entire generations…

I am a big proponent of getting rid of the age-segregation as is it is now and widening the age range, but I'd like to see a citation on Denmark teaching Algebra later and the data on this. I read turn-of-the century math books that are years ahead in rigor and subject matter, and that seemed to fare well. There was a lot of stigmatizing of AP classes by the great "equalizers", but let the kids who can excel, excel.…

> citation on Denmark teaching Algebra later and the data on this

https://www.webmatematik.dk/lektioner/7-9-klasse/algebra

https://matematik.gyldendal.dk/til_laeren/01-om-portalen/06-...

We’re not the best inspiration for how to run your school system though, we have had several huge reforms since the 1995, and the most recent major reform is failing miserably compared to what they are doing in other Scandinavian countries. Which is ironic because the reform was created to catch up, and then ended up failing more than what we had before.

Most it has to due with how our government isn’t willing to commit the necessary resources to run it. We actually have major, major, issues with that in all parts of our public sector right now. So bad with nurses that we’re cancelling operations and seeing delays on our emergency service phone lines on a national scale which are outside of what is legally required.

I think Finland has the best recipe for a modern school system for the west. They did the opposite of us, where instead of making children go to school for longer hours (thus needing more resources), they make children go to school less hours, but focus the resources better.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#515

Post by [deleted] »

moksly wrote: post #212

I’m Danish and not at all interested in the politics of it, but there can be a case for teaching algebra late. We do it in Denmark, because it’s the subject children have the hardest time learning, and having too many of them fail too early kills their interest in math. We still teach algebra in grade 7-9, but we’ve gone through the social experiments of teaching it at different ages, and have lost entire generations…

[deleted]

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#516

Post by nostrademons »

csa wrote: post #158
nostrademons wrote: post #130

The irony is that this is probably going to exacerbate social injustice. Cupertino kids are going to be taking extracurricular math through RSM or Kumon in elementary school, and then the Cupertino school district (in the article) says that they have no intention to comply with the recommendations. SF kids aren't going to be exposed to algebra until 9th grade and then get a rude awakening in college when they realize…

> Not a huge leap from there to the concept of equations, inverse operations, and solving for unknowns. Unfortunately, for a child it typically is a huge leap. There are certain abstractions that young children simply cannot do. The ability to do certain abstractions is distributed along a bell curve (edit: of age), and maybe your child is on the very far left of that curve, but most kids won’t be able to handle the…

Counting and arithmetic are themselves abstractions. The concrete reality is "this is a raspberry. this is another raspberry" etc, and that's about where my kid was at 2 (his loveys are named "Owl" and "Another owl"). Then we learn that there can be 5 raspberries just like there might be 5 ducks or 5 bricks, and that taking away 1 raspberry is like taking away 1 duck or 1 brick.

I could believe that the ability to abstract develops at different times in different kids. But I'd caution about taking Western research and generalizing it across all cultures, or generally assuming that kids are less adaptable than they are. There are existence proofs for kids learning algebra at much younger ages than most American schools do (3rd and 4th graders do in eastern Europe, as do Americans who participate in RSM).

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#517

Post by thenewnormal »

userbinator wrote: post #451

I'm perpetually perplexed at why some people seem to think that lowering the standards is going to help anyone. Do they not realise the source of all scientific and technical advancement is really the result of a minority of high achievers, and that by trying to "flatten" this inequality and effectively make everyone equally stupid, they are also going to be affected negatively? applies social justice principles to m…

>they are also going to be affected negatively

No. "they" are going to lead fine lives, revered as warriors against social injustice, and living in the most exclusive corners of the state. As is typical, the next generation will pay the price.

For what it's worth, it drives me crazy too. The only reason we live such comfortable lives, that we can dedicate so much effort and money to such considerations, is due to the giants on whose shoulders we stand.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#518

Post by cik »

userbinator wrote: post #451

I'm perpetually perplexed at why some people seem to think that lowering the standards is going to help anyone. Do they not realise the source of all scientific and technical advancement is really the result of a minority of high achievers, and that by trying to "flatten" this inequality and effectively make everyone equally stupid, they are also going to be affected negatively? applies social justice principles to m…

This is the problem. It's also horrifically bad for the future economy. For comparison, the rest of the world - at least the parts that want to catch up aren't running this slowly. Also - I think the lack of basic Science + Math education is part of the reason we see things like vaccine hesitancy - but that's just a guess.

My daughter in grade 4 (Israel) is currently learning basic algebra tenets, notably associative, commutative, and distributive properties in basic equations, in addition to basic solve for variable questions. SIN, COSIGN, TANGENT and friends start in grade 6.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#519

Post by lkjfklajsdfpsdf »

I have some concerns.

What are the psychological effects of daily reminders of inequality, equity, and systems of white supremacy. Could this grow resentment, hostility, and/or entitlement?

How is delaying mathematics equitable? How does this represent equity in a global economy?

How does equity and social justice in education respond to individual talent, aptitude, mental health, physical health, and/or socioeconomic status?

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#520

Post by RhodesianHunter »

leereeves wrote: post #505
gumby wrote: post #502

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if you invert your thesis. Sooner doesn’t necessarily imply “higher standard”: 1 - American school teach the alphabet before grade 1, and push kids to read early. German schools don’t even teach the alphabet until grade 1' yet by the end of that year the reading level of the kids is the same as US kids at the end of grade 1, or better. German Pädagogin justify this by saying there is some neural development issu…

Wealthy parents will still define higher standards, because they will send their kids to private schools where more advanced math is taught (e.g. Phillips Exeter Academy teaches calculus to all students and offers linear algebra, statistics, and discrete math to advanced students.[1]). Instead of opening up opportunities for all the kids, this will ensure that no poor student can compete because the courses won't eve…

My crappy public highschool had calculus, it was just called AP.
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