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The latest campus cancellation is different

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Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#511

Post by stochtastic »

ta988 wrote: post #267
tekacs wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to the upstream article posted in a sibling comment [1], the decision was made by the department head for EAPS, themselves a scientist AFAICT [2]. That doesn't necessarily change anything (and I'm not weighing in here), but given your assertion it seemed worth pointing out. [1]: https://orgchart.mit.edu/node/6/letters_to_community/importa... [2]: https://eapsweb.mit.edu/people/hilst

Most department heads are administrators doing subpar research and collecting money on both sides.

That's an odd generalization to apply when we're talking about an individual whose significant academic record is easy to find [0,1]. Many department heads are more senior, taking on organizational responsibilities that would be more of a burden to younger faculty. Perhaps that is what you're referring to. But in the scheme of things EAPS is - and always has been - high on the rigor scale and low on the bureaucracy scale.

[0] - https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=RxOuRnMAAAAJ&hl=en [1] - https://hilst.mit.edu/publications/

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#512

Post by WalterBright »

krageon wrote: post #508
WalterBright wrote: post #469

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You, as an individual can't charge people criminally. I can press charges. Violently holding people prisoner is a felony. It's not a joke. > I suspect you won't get much in the way of financial compensation from a broke college student. It'll be enough to matter to him. Future wages can be garnished. > you'll lose your job I don't want a job where I'm required to be a milquetoast.

> I don't want a job [...] Is what your last sentence essentially says. Every organisation you might work for will care about how things look and how what you do reflects on it.

No job can require me to submit to being assaulted.

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#513

Post by kodah »

coldtea wrote: post #482
kodah wrote: post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Justice" is only available to the rich in the US. I disagree. I think we can all agree the government has a monopoly on violence which it is relatively inclined to use. The US system depends on the idea that someone will challenge the use of that monopoly in their particular instance, which we call precedent. It is true that people not-of-means may be subject to that violence unjustly but it only takes the governm…

> but it only takes the government messing with the wrong person once to establish precedent. Kind of like the case of police routinely shooting unarmed blacks and getting off scot-free? This system seems to have worked wonders to prevent this from happening. Or maybe they just haven't messed with the wrong person yet, since Rodney King hardly changed anything, and Derek Chauvin's convinction wont either...

> Kind of like the case of police routinely shooting unarmed blacks and getting off scot-free?

That's not quite the same. Murder didn't need precedent, however, establishing some framework for grading police incidents retroactively does. What gets in the way of that is existing laws which protect police officers wholesale. If you're trying overturn an entire existing law for a new framework, that's a bit outside the bounds of precedent because you're not longer talking about interpretation.

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#514

Post by staysafeanon »

milesvp wrote: post #343
throwaway984393 wrote: post #270

Actually it's not different. University lecturers have been protested or cancelled for decades for reasons unrelated to their topic, usually due to political beliefs or corporate interests that clashed with students' ideals. "Cancel culture" is specifically about "personal" societal reforms, which is what makes it different than the older complaints about general politics. Back in the day it was "edgy" to protest or…

I’m not sure you’re correct that nothing is different. I saw a lecture recently by someone whose organization does mediation between student groups and universities with regards to free speech. He was saying that a few years ago for the first time his organization was starting to mediate in the opposite direction. Was a very interesting talk. The speaker had tried to commit suicide and in the process of recovering fr…

>Please take care researching this topic, it is a large lightning rod for alt-right and heavily conservative view points.

"Be careful to not allow facts, social psychology, and science based approaches get in the way of the narrative! We can't have any conservative view points around, regardless of how correct they are! The spooky alt-right fascism is just around the corner if you don't delude yourself like a good leftist!"

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#515

Post by version_five »

aisengard wrote: post #155
version_five wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't disagree with your premise (as a libertarian) But re: > I don't see any way to cancel Twitter mobs that doesn't itself uphold cancel culture and destroy liberty. You'll see many people here are suggesting that we just don't listen to the "mob". That would be a way to "cancel" them that is completely compatible with liberty.

Okay, but people clearly do want to listen to the mob. Is the suggestion to cancel those people? It's hilarious that the pure libertarian approach is literally "do nothing".

One doesn't need to run to tell a teacher every time another kid is mean to them. This is exactly the same. The solutions isn't always interventionist, I don't see why that is funny. Do you really expect someone to step in and settle all your disputes for you?

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#516

Post by krageon »

WalterBright wrote: post #512
krageon wrote: post #508

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't want a job [...] Is what your last sentence essentially says. Every organisation you might work for will care about how things look and how what you do reflects on it.

No job can require me to submit to being assaulted.

Nobody was talking about assault.

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#517

Post by lenkite »

worrycue wrote: post #477
motohagiography wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A pervasive lack of backbone among individuals in institutions is key to this. The shunning and shaming tactics used by online mobs are a very particular form of human aggression. Speculating on a correlating factor among the people in these institutions who seem so consistently vulnerable to it may be itself, problematic, but it's as though the organizations are missing anyone with the instinct to challenge or defle…

> The shunning and shaming tactics used by online mobs are a very particular form of human aggression. I just realise how similar the Twitter mob and 4chan harassment mobs are. They are basically 2 sides of the same coin. Even using the similar tactics like digging up dirt and more or less organise the same way, as impromptu mobs that just organically form. Basically modern lynch mobs who never have to face the conse…

Do 4chan mobs get universities to cancel events and speakers and successfully pressurise companies to fire people ?

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#519

Post by tarboreus »

robotresearcher wrote: post #510
ren_engineer wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the problem is that prestigious institutions are run by bureaucrats wearing its skin. For example this article says "MIT buckled", when in reality some campus admin buckled because to them it's not worth risking their comfy job over a speaker. The bureaucrats have no skin in the game, they don't benefit from thinking about long term damage to MIT or society in general. From their perspective it's logical to bow to Tw…

> the problem is that prestigious institutions are run by bureaucrats wearing its skin Universities are run by their professors. Invited talks are regular academic business. A 'campus admin' does not invite or disinvite anyone to give an academic talk.

As someone who left a job in academic administration recently and who is also faculty at another university, this is not true. Administrators can invite and often can disinvite or make other decisions about talks. This kind of day-to-day running of the university has been largely ceded to administrators.

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#520

Post by robotresearcher »

tarboreus wrote: post #519
robotresearcher wrote: post #510

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the problem is that prestigious institutions are run by bureaucrats wearing its skin Universities are run by their professors. Invited talks are regular academic business. A 'campus admin' does not invite or disinvite anyone to give an academic talk.

As someone who left a job in academic administration recently and who is also faculty at another university, this is not true. Administrators can invite and often can disinvite or make other decisions about talks. This kind of day-to-day running of the university has been largely ceded to administrators.

My experience as a professor contradicts this.

Perhaps we are using the word 'administrator' differently.

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