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A generation of American men give up on college

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Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#511

Post by nemo44x »

tck42 wrote: post #473
nemo44x wrote: post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When one of progressives guiding philosophies is “The only remedy to past discrimination is present discrimination. The only remedy to present discrimination is future discrimination.” then this is exactly the plan. It’s all in their texts and one only has to read them to see plainly the type of policy they work towards.

That quote, in context, is available here. https://www.penguin.co.uk/articles/2020/june/ibram-x-kendi-d... I think it's pretty clear from the full text that he's not advocating for racism against past racists or their offspring (which, intentional or not, is what your use of the quote makes it sound like).

He's advocating for "anti-racism" which claims there is no such thing as "not racist" policy, only racist policy and anti-racist policy. But he jumps through hoops to redefine racism so that it can suit his argument that "not racist" doesn't exist. That if you don't consider race in literally everything then you are racist, by his definition. This is in direct opposition to the Civil Rights act of 1964:

"Since the 1960s, racist power has commandeered the term “racial discrimination,” transforming the act of discriminating on the basis of race into an inherently racist act. But if racial discrimination is defined as treating, considering, or making a distinction in favor or against an individual based on that person’s race, then racial discrimination is not inherently racist. The defining question is whether the discrimination is creating equity or inequity."

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#512

Post by watwut »

david38 wrote: post #26
otoburb wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to the article women still believe the trade-off to be worth paying for and attending college since their application numbers are still holding steady. Are most of them making a huge mistake? I guess it depends heavily in the credential(s), but I think there has to be a deeper reason for falling and unbalanced undergraduate enrollment amongst men.

Women are known to chase institutional accolades more than men when given the opportunity. It is in line with a general preference for more security. Will it work today? Probably. There are few women in the trades. If you can get a cheap degree, it is likely better than no degree.

I always assumed no one give me benefit of doubt if I don't have something actually in hand. Which meant for me, I would expect the degree to be necessary for me to get the first job.

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#513

Post by kingaillas »

ceilingcorner wrote: post #113

COVID has accelerated this big time. Why spend $5,000 a semester to watch a Zoom lecture from an average professor when you can open YouTube in a new tab and see a world-class professor share the same information for free? It makes no rational sense. The moment that a serious, legitimate credential system appears, every average university will disappear overnight. We'll be left with an oligarch class that attends the…

>spend $5,000 a semester

That's what I spent a semester (total)... in the early 90's.

These days it is more like $5,000 a semester (per class)!

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#514

Post by jjk166 »

zabzonk wrote: post #488
bernulli wrote: post #461

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not really a thing. Also, wait till you hear how much an academic makes from the articles they publish, and from those lucrative research grants from big-[oil,pharma,etc].

> That's not really a thing. Sorry, it is. I've worked in higher education and I've seen it happen. What other explanation do you have for the sales of these ludicrous "textbooks"?

It's not like there is a cheap alternative that the professors can switch to. All new edition textbooks are expensive. They can't specify out of print editions because then you can't guarantee that your students can get access to them, and the textbook companies update the problems in the books just enough to make using a different edition from the one specified impractical.

Some publishers may incentivize using their particular textbook, but there isn't some vast conspiracy to jack up prices. The fact is textbooks are a niche product with a steep demand curve that can be paid for with subsidized loans, of course they're going to be ridiculously overpriced.

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#515

Post by [deleted] »

whywhywhywhy wrote: post #360

Great news, the concept that you need college to succeed was one of the greatest lies told to my generation. Pleased the next generation is waking up. End of the day if the loan can't be written off, if the loan is just handed out to 18 year olds and has almost no limit then the organization that asks for the loan will inevitably balloon out of all proportion and no longer be reflective at all of the value you get ba…

[deleted]

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#516

Post by watwut »

spaceflunky wrote: post #39
phendrenad2 wrote: post #8

This is because in our society, it's more acceptable for men to drop out and get into some skilled trade, like plumbing or climbing telephone poles. People just won't accept that women can also do that. So there's a lot of pressure to make sure your female children go to college and get a degree.

> like plumbing or climbing telephone poles. People just won't accept that women can also do that. You sure about that? Or is it that the majority of women don't see themselves unclogging toilets for a living? I have never seen it, but I would suspect list of female applications to plumbing or electrician school is very very short.

You are sort of skimming over actual need for actual physical strength in those field. But yes, these are assumed to be boys occupation - including when presented to children.

But like, given they require physical strength, it is hard to make a big deal about it.

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#517

Post by Zababa »

tchaffee wrote: post #143
baron816 wrote: post #63

A lot of this is driven by narratives—A narrative that college isn’t worth it anymore. A narrative that (white) men are uniformly privileged and life is just easy for them. And a narrative that those men aren’t wanted by society any more. I’m not convinced that all those men need to go to college, but they clearly need something. They need to feel like they’re part of society. Nothing good can come of an entire gener…

Is it a "narrative" that college isn't it worth it anymore or is that largely based in fact in the US? Especially when it comes to specific degrees that don't have a demand in the workplace. The cost of higher education in the US has financially crippled millions. And trade jobs pay well for far less education costs. Doing a cost / benefit analysis would seem the wisest choice. The bigger problem to me is that with s…

> Is it a "narrative" that college isn't it worth it anymore or is that largely based in fact in the US?

It is. In France college is 400€ a year.

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#518

Post by aogaili »

watwut wrote: post #507
aogaili wrote: post #465

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why the downvote? I don't share her opinion, I'm just sharing an encounter I had. I was really surprised by her response, coming from different culture to the west, both of my parents are engineers. I met several great women developers in my career and I personally think the field will benefit a lot by having more diverse perspectives on the tools being created.

> I met several great women developers in my career Why is the other one poster child for feminity? I met guys who dropped out of college, because they could not keep grades due to regular whole night gaming. I met guys who switched out of CS, because they could not pass exams despite trying. In both gender, you get some amount of irresponsible, disinterested, troublemakers or simply people with too many mental issue…

Agreed,I don't want generalize.

But that incident stuck in my head because I expected many answers but not the one she gave! Anyway, it was a light hearted conversation not to be taken seriously.

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#519

Post by watwut »

Nimitz14 wrote: post #84
amanaplanacanal wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think that when women were under-represented it was because they were plumbers or climbing telephone poles? Because that's the only way your suggestion makes sense.

They weren't working at all.

That is not actually true. The all women are stay at home thing was never true. Society always had women who worked, because they are unmarried, husband is alcoholic, husband died, husband does not earn all that much.

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#520

Post by [deleted] »

perryizgr8 wrote: post #144
ceilingcorner wrote: post #113

COVID has accelerated this big time. Why spend $5,000 a semester to watch a Zoom lecture from an average professor when you can open YouTube in a new tab and see a world-class professor share the same information for free? It makes no rational sense. The moment that a serious, legitimate credential system appears, every average university will disappear overnight. We'll be left with an oligarch class that attends the…

> Why spend $5,000 a semester to watch a Zoom lecture from an average professor when you can open YouTube in a new tab and see a world-class professor share the same information for free? Because most employers will not even consider your application without a degree.

[deleted]
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