One Bad Apple • Hacker News Board

Re: One Bad Apple

#511

Post by cvwright » Mon, Aug 09, 2021, 4:23 PM UTC

zepto wrote: post #488

cvwright wrote: post #487

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s just sad how things have shifted. During the Cold War, the West in general and the US in particular were proud of spreading freedom and democracy. Rock & roll and Levi’s played a big role in bringing down the USSR. Then in the 90s, the internet had this same ethos. People fought against filters on computers in libraries and schools. Now that rich westerners have their porn and their video games, apparently many…

I actually feel the same way. I miss those earlier eras. I just think that exaggerating scares is part of the problem, not the solution, regardless of which side of a debate is doing it.

Agreed in principle. But in this particular case, I think it's difficult to exaggerate the badness of this scare. This strikes me as one of the "Those who forget their history are doomed to repeat it" kind of things.

Like with the TSA and the no-fly list. Civil liberties groups said it was going to be abused, and they said so well before any actual abuse had occurred. But they weren't overreacting, and they weren't exaggerating. They were right. Senator Ted Kennedy even wound up on that list at one point.

Re: One Bad Apple

#512

Post by matheusmoreira » Mon, Aug 09, 2021, 4:29 PM UTC

throwavocado wrote: post #507

candiodari wrote: post #471

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why doesn't anyone ever question their intent to protect children? There is no such intent. When they do protect children, these are the sorts of observations of what happens when the state has 100% control over children: https://www.kansascity.com/news/special-reports/article23820... Why does the state, when they treat children like this, get to proceed on "more" child protection to protect children ? Are we totally…

I am supportive of Apple’s new child protection policies. I spent two years helping to build some of the tools used for scanning and reporting content (EDIT: not at Apple). There are a few sentiments in this thread that I'd like to address. > Yeah, and none of these assholes (pardon the language) is willing to spend a penny to provide for millions of children suffering of poverty: free education, food, health, parent…

HN is the only place I feel safe enough to post these pro-privacy opinions. In many other communities, I've seen people being accused of serious crimes for daring to take issue with whatever surveillance the authorities are trying to implement. I've seen people openly speculating about the CSAM stashes of encryption users. What else could they possibly be hiding, right?

I don't think I trust actual authorities either.

Re: One Bad Apple

#513

Post by DSMan195276 » Mon, Aug 09, 2021, 4:35 PM UTC

skinkestek wrote: post #302

DSMan195276 wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Were that to happen today, I would be sitting in a jail cell, looking at a lengthy prison sentence. No you would not, I was ready to somewhat agree with you but this is just false and has nothing to do with what you were talking about before. The law does not say that naked photos of (your or anyone else's) kids are inherently illegal, they have to actually be sexual in nature. And while the line is certainly not a…

> The law does not say that naked photos of (your or anyone else's) kids are inherently illegal, they have to actually be sexual in nature. But that depends on who looks at it. People have been arrested and (at least temporary) lost custody over their children because someone called the police over perfectly normal family photos. I remember one case a few years ago where someone had gotten into trouble because one ph…

> I'd say we get police or health care to talk to people who think perfectly normal images are sexual in nature, but until we get laws changed at least then keep us safe.

Personally I don't find anecdotes convincing compared to the very real amount of CSAM (and actual child abuse) we already know exists and circulates in the wild, but I do get your point. That said personally I don't think changing the laws would really achieve what you want anyway - I don't think a random Walmart employee is up-to-date on the legal definitions of CSAM, they're going to potentially report it regardless of what the law is (and the question of whether this is a wider trend is debatable, again this is an anecdote).

With that, they were eventually found innocent, so the law already agrees what they did was perfectly fine, which was my original point. No it should not have taken that long, but then again we don't know much about the background of those who took them, so I'm not entirely sure we can easily determine how appropriate the response was. I'm certainly not trying to claim our system is perfect, but I'm also not convinced rolling back protections for abused children is a great idea without some solid evidence that it really isn't working.

> Another thing that comes up is that a lot of things that are legal might be in that database because criminal might have a somewhat varied history.

That didn't really answer my question :P

I agree the database is suspect but I don't see how that has anything to do with the definition of CSAM. The legal definition of CSAM is not "anything in that database", and if we're already suggesting that there's stuff in there that's known to not be CSAM then how would changing the definition of CSAM help?

Re: One Bad Apple

#514

Post by sharken » Mon, Aug 09, 2021, 4:36 PM UTC

gambiting wrote: post #415

Shaddox wrote: post #409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This quote sums it up perfectly : “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep ,his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval…

The consequences seem very simple - once this system is in place, it's only a matter of time until a state actor, be it China or US or Russia or pretty much anywhere goes to Apple and says "hey this hash matching algorithm you have there? If you want to keep operating in our country, you need to match hashes too, no, we won't tell you what they are and what they represent, but you have to report to our state agency w…

And i think if you're working on these systems, then it's all too easy to only think about the happy scenario.

But time has shown that an initial good concept will transform into something worse.

We have a very recent example with Corona contact-tracing apps, that law enforcement in multiple democratic countries are now using for other purposes.

So no, we should not allow this client-side scanning to go through, it will not end well.

Re: One Bad Apple

#515

Post by ok123456 » Mon, Aug 09, 2021, 4:41 PM UTC

katbyte wrote: post #254

zepto wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> More types of bad images or other files will be scanned since now apple does not have plausible deniablity to defend any of ghe government’x requests. The mechanism doesn’t scan anything except images, and won’t trigger on a single bad image - only a set. Yes, that set could be something other than child porn, assuming Apple and NCMEC conspire, but this is not a general purpose backdoor.

It also only scans images uploaded to icloud

"Don't worry this malware is only triggered if you double click it. -- signed the author"

Re: One Bad Apple

#516

Post by matheusmoreira » Mon, Aug 09, 2021, 4:44 PM UTC

nyx-aiur wrote: post #460

matheusmoreira wrote: post #456

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You don't know if anything is or will be abused Actually I do. Governments abuse their powers all the time. They have done it before, are doing it right now and will continue to do it in the future. This is not fallacy, it is fact. Here's an example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LOVEINT The only solution is to take their power away. No way to abuse power they don't have. We must make it technologically impossible…

That's the exact same fallacy you are proposing to fix a symptom and not the problem. You want to reign in the government YOU ARE ELECTING TO GOVERN you with technology instead of real political work. Either vote different or get into politics and fix yourself. Your wikipedia link doesn't show anything regarding abuse of the governing body ALL of the examples are from private persons.

I didn't elect anyone. There is not a single politician in power right now that represents me. I'm not even american to begin with so it's not like I have any influence over american administration.

In any case, there's no reason why politics and democracy ought to be the only way to bring about change. We have a far more powerful tool: technology.

Governments make their laws. People make technology that neutralizes their laws. They make new laws. People make new technology. And so on. With every iteration, the government must become ever more tyrannical in order to maintain the same level of control over the population it previously enjoyed. If this loop continues long enough, we'll either end up with an uncontrollable population or with an oppressive totalitarian state. Hopefully limits will be found along the way.

> Your wikipedia link doesn't show anything regarding abuse of the governing body ALL of the examples are from private persons.

A government employee abused his access to the USA's warrantless surveillance apparatus in order to spy on his loved ones. If this isn't abuse of power, I don't know what is.

Honestly, it's just human nature. No person should ever be given such powers to begin with. I wouldn't trust myself with such power. It should be impossible to spy on everyone.

Re: One Bad Apple

#517

Post by matheusmoreira » Mon, Aug 09, 2021, 4:54 PM UTC

nyx-aiur wrote: post #466

gambiting wrote: post #464

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>if the government YOU are electing Except like I clearly said above, I'm an immigrant without the right to vote, so I'm not electing shit. Again, how exactly am I supposed to vote my way out of this?

You can leave the country or you can be political active in other ways than direct votes. Don't wiggle your way out of your extremist position that you can't do anything except building technology which would be totally obsolete if you fixed your political problem.

> you can be political active in other ways than direct votes

Absolutely. That's why we're posting our thoughts here and attempting to convince others.

Re: One Bad Apple

#518

Post by matheusmoreira » Mon, Aug 09, 2021, 4:56 PM UTC

nyx-aiur wrote: post #462

gambiting wrote: post #452

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How so? The UK's snooper's charter that compels ISPs to save your entire browsing history for a year was only meant to be used to catch pedophiles and terrorists, and now 17 different agencies have been given completely warrantless access to the database, including the UK's Food Standards Agency(??!?!?!?). People have already been fired for abusing access too, so it definitely happens too. >>The problem here is with…

It's the exact same shit I was talking about instead of fixing your governing body you want to fix it with technology. All the crypto apologist are the same way if the government YOU are electing does something stupid you want to fix the symptom and not the governing body. You are just throwing around goal posts instead of working on the real problem.

Civil disobedience. If we think a law is unjust, it is our duty to disobey and undermine it. Technology is a tool that allows us to do exactly that.

Re: One Bad Apple

#519

Post by nemothekid » Mon, Aug 09, 2021, 5:12 PM UTC

nyx-aiur wrote: post #462

gambiting wrote: post #452

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How so? The UK's snooper's charter that compels ISPs to save your entire browsing history for a year was only meant to be used to catch pedophiles and terrorists, and now 17 different agencies have been given completely warrantless access to the database, including the UK's Food Standards Agency(??!?!?!?). People have already been fired for abusing access too, so it definitely happens too. >>The problem here is with…

It's the exact same shit I was talking about instead of fixing your governing body you want to fix it with technology. All the crypto apologist are the same way if the government YOU are electing does something stupid you want to fix the symptom and not the governing body. You are just throwing around goal posts instead of working on the real problem.

>government YOU are electing does something stupid

Is America the entire world to you? What should a Chinese citizen do? What should a Saudi citizen do? What should a Russian citizen do? Even if you ignore the fact that the chance of fascism in American is not zero, why should Apple make it easier for totalitarian regimes to spy on their citizens? Or do you expect a Saudi person to "just move to America"?

Re: One Bad Apple

#520

Post by tgsovlerkhgsel » Mon, Aug 09, 2021, 5:13 PM UTC

intended wrote: post #432

commoner wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

9to5Mac published the full message that NCMEC sent to Apple: https://9to5mac.com/2021/08/06/apple-internal-memo-icloud-ph... It does say "We know that the days to come will be filled with the screeching voices of the minority."

Wow. Thank you, looks like I was wrong.

The fact that they're willing to openly make such a brazen statement is part of why I think they're unsalvageable.