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Europe's Software Problem

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Re: Europe's Software Problem

#511

Post by nickpp »

dmitriid wrote: post #508
nickpp wrote: post #497

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only straightforward thing about this law is how ignorant were its creators. The cost of implementing it was in the billions. The human time cost paid for all those damn cookie popups we keep having to click on is probably already in the thousands of life-times wasted, and it keeps on growing.

> The cost of implementing it was in the billions. Cry me a river. If you was careless with users' data, who cares? > The human time cost paid for all those damn cookie popups we keep having to click on is probably already in the thousands of life-times wasted, and it keeps on growing. Ah yes, and the problem is the law that protects users' data, and not the companies who couldn't care less about privacy.

The very https://gdpr.eu/ website has a cookie banner!!!

When everybody breaks a law, including its creators, it's the law that is broken.

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#512

Post by nickpp »

dmitriid wrote: post #507
nickpp wrote: post #495

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GDPR doesn't spell out anything. It's the most vague f-ing BS I have ever seen. There are no definitions, no guidelines. 6 years later there is no consensus on simple questions like website analytics which is probably the most common usage scenario for the kind of data GDPR covers. This law is beyond bad.

> There are no definitions, no guidelines. There are both definitions and guidelines. You just didn't even care to read it. For example, cookies: https://gdpr.eu/cookies/ Popups: https://gdpr.eu/recital-32-conditions-for-consent/ === start quote === Consent should be given by a clear affirmative act establishing a freely given, specific, informed and unambiguous indication of the data subject’s agreement to the proce…

Please tell me the consensus and guideline for website analytics.

Please tell me the consensus and guideline on how to store the rejection for using cookies so I don't ask the website visitor every time he visits.

Please tell me the consensus and guideline on what "legitimate purposes" are. With examples per industry please.

And most of all, please tell me the consensus and guideline for cookie banners and popups, considering they are used on the EU's websites themselves.

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#513

Post by rad_gruchalski »

pvaldes wrote: post #488
rad_gruchalski wrote: post #431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How so? It only affects the end consumer. It’s deductible for businesses.

To start, YOU are the end consumer. Lets imagine that you wake up one day, and all is 21% more expensive, would be happy with it?

I am, my company isn't. What's your point? How would things get 21% more expensive from one day to another? The VAT system already functions and is already calculated into the cost of living. An example: selling a SaaS subscription in the EU, the price would be 100%-19% VAT + VAT, selling the same subscription to the US, the price would be 100%. Consumer in the EU does not lose anything. Business neither because the VAT the business pays back to the VAT system can be claimed back on VAT paid by the same business on other services.

The VAT thus motivates businesses to spend money on goods and services. What is it used for? "VAT essentially compensates for the shared service and infrastructure provided in a certain locality by a state and funded by its taxpayers that were used in the provision of that product or service." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value-added_tax

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#514

Post by mmarq »

opportune wrote: post #259
mmarq wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Software development and other tech jobs were low-status professions in Europe (the UK being a partial exception) up until a few years ago. Once a friend told me some thing like "it is not fair that you make more money than I do, I have a degree in literature and, with all due respect, you are just a guy that works with computers". This was not an absurd conversation to hear anywhere in continental Europe in the earl…

This is something I’ve noticed working with European people and also traveling. I think there is a cycle here where because working with software is considered low status, many good software people leave, and lots of smart people probably do not go into the field at all unless they truly love software. This would tend to drive the talent pool down, IMO, which keeps away good software jobs, keeping it low status. In t…

The average IT guy is still more productive and less replaceable than somebody with a degree in literature doing unpaid internships in coffee shops. But for some reason the former used to enjoy less social recognition, at least in continental Europe.

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#515

Post by pvaldes »

rad_gruchalski wrote: post #513
pvaldes wrote: post #488

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To start, YOU are the end consumer. Lets imagine that you wake up one day, and all is 21% more expensive, would be happy with it?

I am, my company isn't. What's your point? How would things get 21% more expensive from one day to another? The VAT system already functions and is already calculated into the cost of living. An example: selling a SaaS subscription in the EU, the price would be 100%-19% VAT + VAT, selling the same subscription to the US, the price would be 100%. Consumer in the EU does not lose anything. Business neither because the…

> How would things get 21% more expensive from one day to another?

New Laws.

Is more expensive because everybody is paying a 21% more in taxes. So either the customer pays more, or the seller accepts to take a cut in their benefits to keep the price in a strategic value (below the product of his competitors)

To compensate it and survive, the startup needs now to find a way to produce the 'same' product 21% cheaper. For example, in China.

That invariably leads to your product being cloned for somebody and fake products invading your market.

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#516

Post by hef19898 »

rad_gruchalski wrote: post #429
kazen44 wrote: post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

mind you the german education system is very different from the US/English one. Germany (and many other european countries) has the idea of a trade school, in which one learns a trade. Usually these are combined with working experience in the form of apprenticeships. In my experience, continental europe has far more emphasis on early work experience compared to ango-saxon countries. An internship usually lasts a coup…

> Germany (and many other european countries) has the idea of a trade school, in which one learns a trade. And that is a problem. Want to be a plumber? 3 years education. Want to open a bakery? 3 years education. Want to work at a bank? 3 years education. Want to be a hairdresser? You guessed it right - 3 years education. Handwerker? No luck, 3 years education. Car mechanic? Forget it. It’s ridiculous.

Yeah, so rediculous that having that kind of vocational training basically gets immigration visas on its own in Canada and Australia. Having proper training apparently increases quality.

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#517

Post by etripe »

jillesvangurp wrote: post #179

I'm a European, living in Europe, developing software. Lack of imagination is not our problem. It's so good that we supply our best talent to the US where it does extremely well revolutionizing AI, designing hardware for Apple, developing games, stream online music, etc. E.g. Amazon's CTO is Dutch. Basically the person that has been running AWS. The people and the education system are fine. Europe does have a few iss…

> Lack of imagination is not our problem.

Perhaps not in developers, but it is where it matters: most upper and middle managers. There's an incredibly conservative, risk-averse attitude. If you're risk-averse, all you see are cost centres, not investment opportunities, pivots and new revenue sources. This has a knock-on effect on the requirements for SaaS vendors.

You have a point about a heterogeneous markets and legal systems. What you're possibly also missing is Europe has a huge public sector compared to the US. That sector doesn't tend to focus on innovation at all, unless it's part of the war machine.

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#518

Post by disgruntledphd2 »

jdc0589 wrote: post #455
6f8986c3 wrote: post #432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You remain a foreigner, who should still work for less pay than those who grew up locally and went to an ivy league school, even though you have the same credentials and graduated at a top school in Europe (in my case, I have an ivy league degree on top of that). Bingo. There's a set of something like ten schools from which Silicon Valley companies hire. If you're not from one of those, you will be cordially invite…

May be true for hiring for entry level roles in same cases, but it is certainly untrue when you are hiring for positions with more than a couple years experience. I have literally never looked at anyone's college credentials unless I'm interviewing for an entry level role. I do not know, or care, where any of my coworkers went to school and I don't know anyone who does. To be fair, we aren't a SV startup, but we've a…

In my experience, at the FAANG I worked at, there was definitely an "approved" schools list for US candidates.

It completely blew my mind, to be honest (and I do see similar weirdnesses in the way US colleagues review CV's, so I don't think it's only a FAANG thing).

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#519

Post by disgruntledphd2 »

hardolaf wrote: post #273
fvdessen wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm working for a thriving startup in a European country of 11 million people. We had 100% growth per year until we had basically everybody in our own country and then it got massively harder. If we had started in the USA, we would have reached that point being 30x bigger, making billions of dollars, and much better prepared to conquer foreign markets. So maybe Israel is doing quite well, but I know from experience t…

Most of the super successful companies in Israel are either doing things for the state or working for American corporations (or the American government).

Yeah, in general any successful EU/Europe startups target the American market, because Americans are typically richer, and the market is huuuuuuuggggge (relative to European countries, at least).

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#520

Post by _abox »

kortilla wrote: post #450
beebeepka wrote: post #433

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Law is reasonable then. You track your user, you notify them . I fail to see the problem. Then again, I am not running shady websites and selling user data

Yes, very reasonable. Gdpr pop ups on nearly every site with dark patterns making it annoying to opt out. A resounding success.

It should be opt in actually as per GDPR. But I agree they should police that a lot more.
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