America has a drinking problem • Hacker News Board

Re: America has a drinking problem

#511

Post by ekidd » Wed, Jun 02, 2021, 3:04 AM UTC

ABCLAW wrote: post #485

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #153

It's hard to reduce the US to a single culture. Alcohol consumption habits vary greatly from region to region, or even city to city depending on where you live. I've noticed that heavy drinkers tend to cluster with other heavy drinkers. The more you see your friends and coworkers binge drinking regularly, the more you feel it's an acceptable and even common behavior. Likewise, non-drinkers tend to cluster with each o…

>It's hard to reduce the US to a single culture. The US had a very particular set of economic conditions in respect of infrastructure quality, volume of arable land for corn production, and corn vs corn mash distillate transport costs. The result? "[In the 1790s], the settlement of the so-called “corn belt” in the Midwest created large new supplies of corn, which was cheaper and more profitable to convert into whiske…

> Given the price, Americans drank an absurdly, mind-bendingly large amount of booze.

I once skimmed Prohibition-era academic text that described US drinking culture of the pre-Prohibition period in detail. It was fairly disturbing, as you suggest—whiskey in serving sizes that would work better with beer, and things like that.

But even though Prohibition failed to stop people from drinking, it apparently _did_ disrupt the earlier drinking culture in many ways. So I would be careful about using pre-Prohibition behavior to make inferences about post-Prohibition behavior.

(I'd love to find that book again, but sadly the library which had it got rid of a substantial number of rarely-used older books at some point.)

Re: America has a drinking problem

#512

Post by DigitalSea » Wed, Jun 02, 2021, 3:07 AM UTC

As an Australian who worked in the US for a startup back in 2014/2015 pre-COVID, I can attest to the different attitude towards drinking. Australia is known for its drinking habits as well, but the US and, in particular, the tech industry is different. The startup I worked for had continually restocked beer kegs (three different types of craft beer) it was normal for people to drink during lunch, stay back late and write some code, have some more beer. Sometimes we'd go to a hip bar or restaurant, we'd order pitchers of craft beer. Drinking was just so constant and normal, it was like drinking coffee, a part of the startup routine.

It's the same story at companies like Facebook, Google and Twitter, drink fridges with soft drink, juices and then beer/cider/wine, it's such a strange thing when you think about it workplaces offering alcohol to their employees, allowing them to self-moderate their consumption. In Australia the concept of workplace provided drinks that are always there isn't a common thing, even in our startup scene. The closest I've witnessed is Friday drinks, which is where you and your coworkers finish a little early and have a drink to celebrate the week or milestone. Even then, people would have to go out and get the beer/wine to drink, it wasn't just there ready to go.

I wonder if any research has been done into the tech industry and its relationship with alcohol? Because I often saw the casual attitude to drinking as exclusive, especially to those who are recovering from addiction or have had complications with alcohol in the past. Imagine being an ex-alcoholic and getting a job for a modern day tech startup? Surrounded by young twenty-somethings who casually will down a few glasses of IPA and go home to hacking on their MacBook Pros until the early morning like it's nothing.

I don't see anything wrong with solitary drinking, unless you're doing it to deal with stress or problems. But, if you're like me (who works 100% remote now), I enjoy a good glass of scotch or a beer every now and then in the evening, even if my wife isn't drinking or we're not entertaining.

Re: America has a drinking problem

#513

Post by adonovan » Wed, Jun 02, 2021, 3:10 AM UTC

bradleyjg wrote: post #201

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #153

It's hard to reduce the US to a single culture. Alcohol consumption habits vary greatly from region to region, or even city to city depending on where you live. I've noticed that heavy drinkers tend to cluster with other heavy drinkers. The more you see your friends and coworkers binge drinking regularly, the more you feel it's an acceptable and even common behavior. Likewise, non-drinkers tend to cluster with each o…

That’s a great (surprising) reference. Intellectually I know functional alcoholics exist but it’s still tough to come to grips with that many people drinking that much alcohol. I’m curious what it looks by age, geography, and household income.

I learned recently that the booze industry would go bankrupt overnight if it weren't for the heaviest drinkers, those who consume the best part of a fifth of whiskey every day. See e.g. https://www.newsweek.com/americas-heaviest-drinkers-consume-...

Makes you realize the hypocrisy of "drink responsibly".

Re: America has a drinking problem

#514

Post by industriousthou » Wed, Jun 02, 2021, 3:13 AM UTC

throwaway894345 wrote: post #276

piyh wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Take it to the extreme of an LSD trip, you can get something out of it that you can't get any other way. You take a day to mentally dig into your psyche and cut through so many of your mental ruts, while having some crazy hallucinations. Sobriety is great and preferable 99% of the time to me, but your framing of "escaping or distorting reality" is founded on a trust that your senses and current mental processes are o…

> Take it to the extreme of an LSD trip, you can get something out of it that you can't get any other way. You take a day to mentally dig into your psyche and cut through so many of your mental ruts, while having some crazy hallucinations. Maybe. I'm unconvinced that this is the only way to achieve any kind of insight. In particular I'd be surprised if it outperforms a cup of coffee or a rhapsodical conversation for…

Sometimes escaping can give you a little distance and a perspective from which you can see reality more clearly. Sometimes confronting reality is just (mis)applying ingrained cognitive patterns to a bunch of details.

Also, sometimes things are just really shitty and there's nothing that can realistically fix them and escapism actually is a reasonable choice.

Re: America has a drinking problem

#515

Post by gcanyon » Wed, Jun 02, 2021, 3:14 AM UTC

kenneth wrote: post #493

jnathsf wrote: post #425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many have gone California sober [0] - moving away from alcohol to cannabis and psychedlics as a way to be more healthy and sustainable [0] https://www.addictionresource.net/blog/california-sober/

Cannabis is in no way healthier than alcohol. It's hard to quantify the damages done by one vs. the other; but there are very serious social and psychological downsides to regular cannabis use.

UK expert disagrees —- marijuana does less damage to the user, and much less to friends and family, than alcohol does: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-11660210

Re: America has a drinking problem

#516

Post by gwbas1c » Wed, Jun 02, 2021, 3:18 AM UTC

Barrin92 wrote: post #135

Article mirrors my experience. For context I'm German, my wife's French and we've got family in Croatia who own a vineyard so I'm used to being around alcohol and people drinking. My first impression when I spent time was in the US was indeed how bipolar drinking is compared to Europe. We probably drink a hell of a lot more in raw terms than the average American does.Two glasses of wine for dinner, another one in the…

As an American, I find that most people drink much less than that. The alcoholics are often around people who drink so much that they aren't aware that drinking multiple drinks a day is uncommon.

I honestly get sick when I drink more than three drinks within three hours.

Re: America has a drinking problem

#517

Post by jejones3141 » Wed, Jun 02, 2021, 3:18 AM UTC

quadyeast wrote: post #249

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #153

It's hard to reduce the US to a single culture. Alcohol consumption habits vary greatly from region to region, or even city to city depending on where you live. I've noticed that heavy drinkers tend to cluster with other heavy drinkers. The more you see your friends and coworkers binge drinking regularly, the more you feel it's an acceptable and even common behavior. Likewise, non-drinkers tend to cluster with each o…

that chart does not make sense to me unless >10% of Americans are AA. I can't think of anyone, besides non-drinking Alcoholics, that have less than 1 drink/wk

I wouldn't hazard a guess about the general population based on the people I know. I can, though, talk about my experience.

I grew up in what's called the "Bible Belt", so that may have something to do with my not drinking. I had what might be a common experience--as a child expressing curiosity about a beer a relative was drinking, being offered a sip, and spitting it out in disgust, with no interest in a second taste.

Much later, a friend invited me and other friends over to a very nice dinner with appropriate wine served with each course. It was good, and all seemed well... until I noticed that I was singing Tom Lehrer's "Masochism Tango" at high volume. The next day what freaked me out was that at every stage I thought myself under control, but clearly I had lost it. I did not want a repetition.

Since then I found that there is good tasting beer; I tried a little at a restaurant where they brewed it themselves--but I only tried it the once and didn't finish it. Later I heard that occasional red wine was supposedly good for one's health, and for a while ordered a glass periodically, but I couldn't make myself finish it. Haven't had any for a long time, and now the prescriptions I take preclude further drinking. (Maybe aging baby boomers on prescription drugs bend the curve?)

Re: America has a drinking problem

#518

Post by bnralt » Wed, Jun 02, 2021, 3:19 AM UTC

cm2012 wrote: post #347

Barrin92 wrote: post #135

Article mirrors my experience. For context I'm German, my wife's French and we've got family in Croatia who own a vineyard so I'm used to being around alcohol and people drinking. My first impression when I spent time was in the US was indeed how bipolar drinking is compared to Europe. We probably drink a hell of a lot more in raw terms than the average American does.Two glasses of wine for dinner, another one in the…

For what its worth it I looked up the data to disprove you but it actually backs you up. The data says that Germans drink more than Americans but have lower rates of alcoholism and liver disease. German data: https://www.who.int/substance_abuse/publications/global_alco... US data: https://www.who.int/substance_abuse/publications/global_alco...

When factoring in the alcohol-attributable fractions, it looks like German males have slightly higher rates of liver failure because of alcohol than American males, while German females have slightly less than American females. An this is with the U.S. population demographically being much more susceptible to alcohol liver disease than Germany[1].

Looking at the numbers, I think there's a real possibility that Germans and other Europeans have a problem with alcohol that's just as bad if not worse, but are possibly less willing to admit it. Just like how 70 years ago few in America would be willing to admit America's problems with alcohol and tobacco.

[1] https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/02/150220190741.h...

Re: America has a drinking problem

#519

Post by ABCLAW » Wed, Jun 02, 2021, 3:21 AM UTC

ekidd wrote: post #511

ABCLAW wrote: post #485

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It's hard to reduce the US to a single culture. The US had a very particular set of economic conditions in respect of infrastructure quality, volume of arable land for corn production, and corn vs corn mash distillate transport costs. The result? "[In the 1790s], the settlement of the so-called “corn belt” in the Midwest created large new supplies of corn, which was cheaper and more profitable to convert into whiske…

> Given the price, Americans drank an absurdly, mind-bendingly large amount of booze. I once skimmed Prohibition-era academic text that described US drinking culture of the pre-Prohibition period in detail. It was fairly disturbing, as you suggest—whiskey in serving sizes that would work better with beer, and things like that. But even though Prohibition failed to stop people from drinking, it apparently _did_ disrup…

My statement isn't that Americans are still drowning in cheaper than milk corn-booze.

It's that there's a shared history regarding alcohol consumption which is uniquely American in nature.

Prohibition is part of that unique experience, and very much a part of the explanation for the compression of the consumption distribution.

Re: America has a drinking problem

#520

Post by industriousthou » Wed, Jun 02, 2021, 3:23 AM UTC

mulmen wrote: post #99

mywittyname wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The average of the top 10% of anything is going to be absurd compared to the population average; probably around 2 standard deviations over the mean. If you looked at the average caloric consumption at the top 10% of people, you'd probably find the amount similarly unbelievable. Ten drinks isn't that much hard liquor: it's about 450ml. That's a little more than a can (392ml).

That's 60% of a fifth/750ml "regular" bottle of liquor. It's an enormous quantity of hard alcohol. If I drank that much in a day I would never be sober.

Depending on your body weight, you should be able to metabolize it in about twelve hours, so you would have twelve hours of (hungover) sobriety a day.