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Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

reuters.com

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Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#511

Post by ipaddr »

iliketosleep wrote: post #492
door100 wrote: post #487

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if all of these were true (I would describe most of them as a mischaracterization at best), do you honestly think that outweighs everything that I described? The worst thing that people can say about unions is they are bureaucratic and inconvenient. The worst things people can say about, say, working conditions in many non-unionized American workplaces are far, far worse. People dying, unfairly losing their job…

> The worst thing that people can say about unions is they are bureaucratic and inconvenient. I disagree. Unions can lead to the death of entire industries - I have seen it with my own eyes. Inefficiencies created by unions lead to jobs going to places where such unions do not exist. Personally, I do believe the workers need to be protected, but if you protect workers then you also need to protect industries, and thi…

Unions don't kill industries because in many cases union and non-union companies serve an industry at the same time.

Free trade moves industries elsewhere.

But actually killing an industry: technology, war, social changes, demand and laws that outlaw things.

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#512

Post by ndosnfiwjaijx »

mav3rick wrote: post #507
supercanuck wrote: post #496

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. Geography

Really ? Working more has nothing to do with it ? Or brilliant universities ? Or immigration ?

Having a population multiple times larger than France, massive reserves of important natural resources such as oil, and being safe from two world wars go a long way.

USA didn't have any real competing countries near them. Canada and Mexico are jokes.

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#513

Post by ipaddr »

renewiltord wrote: post #484
AlexandrB wrote: post #472

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure why people hate unions exactly. Seems weird to have "freedom of assembly" but then hate those that practice it for better negotiating leverage.

Eh? I hate lots of people who I nonetheless want to have freedom of assembly. Like anti-vaxxers. I want them to be able to say antivax shit but I hate them. What exactly is weird about this?

Wanting to take away another groups freedom is not unheard of but it is anti-social.

Actually hating them probably means you have a lot of misplaced anger.

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#514

Post by sjwright »

r0p3 wrote: post #275
sjwright wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that sufficient reason to coerce others to participate? Why should people who want to collectively bargain have a veto over the people who don’t want that?

Why is it coercive to have to join a union to work somewhere? Work somewhere else. If that sounds coercive then so should having to work at tesla to begin with. I think wage labor is always a bit coercive but I don't see how having to join a union to work somewhere is worse. And it solves the free rider problem.

I agree with you in the case where a union was already in place when you joined. I'm talking about the situation where a new union is proposed in your current workplace.

> Work somewhere else.

You could equally say to any workers at Tesla who want to establish a union. Work somewhere else.

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#515

Post by sjwright »

neolog wrote: post #404
sjwright wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that sufficient reason to coerce others to participate? Why should people who want to collectively bargain have a veto over the people who don’t want that?

The other side of the coin is why should people who don't want to collectively bargain have a veto over the people who do? (Since that's what happens when management can circumvent the union -- the union loses its bargaining power.) As for how to choose, I'm not sure.

It is unreasonable to equate imposing something upon others and "imposing" nothing upon others. When all else is equal, the higher bar ought to be placed upon the imposition of additional layers of bureaucracy in other people's lives.

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#516

Post by watwut »

hemantv wrote: post #494
door100 wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The horrors of... a 35 hour workweek, 5 weeks paid vacation, 16 weeks paid maternity leave, universal healthcare, and no at-will employment?

There is reason US is very competitive globally vs France just the shell of its former glory

The former glory was holding colonies by considerable violence. If unions are the ones who stopped it, good. Through I strongly doubt unions had anything to do with that.

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#517

Post by iliketosleep »

postpawl wrote: post #509
iliketosleep wrote: post #492

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The worst thing that people can say about unions is they are bureaucratic and inconvenient. I disagree. Unions can lead to the death of entire industries - I have seen it with my own eyes. Inefficiencies created by unions lead to jobs going to places where such unions do not exist. Personally, I do believe the workers need to be protected, but if you protect workers then you also need to protect industries, and thi…

“death of entire industries” What industry? Maybe we need to open a gigantic can of worms that “runs counter to globalization” if we’re talking about sending those jobs to countries with unethical working conditions.

> What industry?

There are many examples in the manufacturing industry, though unions aren't the only factor.

> Maybe we need to open a gigantic can of worms that “runs counter to globalization” if we’re talking about sending those jobs to countries with unethical working conditions.

I couldn't agree more, the problem is there are powerful interests that will keep trying to sweep this issue under the rug.

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#518

Post by nailer »

ipaddr wrote: post #511
iliketosleep wrote: post #492

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The worst thing that people can say about unions is they are bureaucratic and inconvenient. I disagree. Unions can lead to the death of entire industries - I have seen it with my own eyes. Inefficiencies created by unions lead to jobs going to places where such unions do not exist. Personally, I do believe the workers need to be protected, but if you protect workers then you also need to protect industries, and thi…

Unions don't kill industries because in many cases union and non-union companies serve an industry at the same time. Free trade moves industries elsewhere. But actually killing an industry: technology, war, social changes, demand and laws that outlaw things.

Free trade is often used to move work to countries without unions.

Not advocating either position here, just pointing this out.

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#519

Post by conradfr »

aborsy wrote: post #134

Working in France completely changed my view of unions. I sure hope the horrors I saw won’t happen to Tesla.

Unions work very differently in France compared to the U.S.

Employees don't even decide if they want unions or not.

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#520

Post by ralusek »

mempko wrote: post #483
baud147258 wrote: post #467

Earlier quoted context omitted.

or the deadwood that gets protected because they belong to an union. Or unions being against remote work because that'd reduce employee control. Or union leadership just using their membership to laze around. Or union opposing projects they don't like. Or union harassing (including physically) managers. And to say nothing of railway union who apparently have a Mission to gridlock the country every few years (usually…

Great way to talk about your fellow colleagues as dead wood. I would love working with you.

I assume they're not just talking about all of their colleagues, but specifically the ones that don't pull their own weight.

If you don't pull your own weight, then I would love working with you.

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