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Germany pauses AstraZeneca vaccinations as a 'precaution'

reuters.com

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Re: Germany pauses AstraZeneca vaccinations as a 'precaution'

#511

Post by libertine »

agd wrote: post #366
libertine wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These cases are 4x greater then the ones in the UK, so either UK isn't reporting some cases, or something isn't right with AZ production. Also, I'm pretty sure each regulator knows the pros and cons of this decision, and they know well the consequences of stopping the vaccination - it's not like they are all incompetent. I mean, imagine the odds of the amount of ignorance to have reached this level of decision making…

The European regulator and the WHO have said that countries should continue to vaccinate with the AZ vaccine, but the national governments are ignoring this. With this many countries pausing vaccinations, we know that there will potentially be thousands of extra deaths.

EMA retracted what was said and is evaluating the problem. The WHO doesn't want this event to spread to other countries, because the vaccine seems safe, this might be a production problem.

Should be investigated, and if it's a bad batch shouldn't be given to people.

Re: Germany pauses AstraZeneca vaccinations as a 'precaution'

#512

Post by libertine »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #506
shafyy wrote: post #467

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, random guy on HN has more data than the official governmental health agencies.

On the contrary, I'm just repeating the published data and opinions of experts and indeed health agencies from the WHO to the EMA (European Medical Agency). I think it is therefore those who are calling for who have suspended this vaccine to explain the reasons because they seem to baffle everyone. Bearing in mind the previous 'doubts' some in the EU had about the vaccine's effectiveness for people above 65 I am not…

What published data are you referring to? Because the event that's causing this is in no way within the statistical references most of the British media is pumping out - which is what you're talking about when you say "blood cloths".

It's not "just blood cloths", it's the type of cloths, where they are located, with low pallet count, with more incidence on a younger age group, localized in an hospital staff.

Re: Germany pauses AstraZeneca vaccinations as a 'precaution'

#513

Post by cutemonster »

DiggyJohnson wrote: post #316
amelius wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course you ask a reputable one, e.g. head of CDC etc. otherwise prepare to get in trouble with journalists.

> of course you ask a reputable one What if that turns out to be more difficult than you originally realized.

You can just forget about it all and don't tell anyone you ever asked him/her.

Re: Germany pauses AstraZeneca vaccinations as a 'precaution'

#514

Post by libertine »

ggreer wrote: post #427
libertine wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. This subject can easily backfire and blow the trust of a population on vaccines, or worst, on the regulators. Imagine this is the outcome of a production problem, yet regulators refused to acknowledge this until it was out of proportions because the problem wasn't fixed. Not only people would lose trust on vaccines, they would lose trust on the regulator - this extends far beyond this vaccine, but all vaccin…

I think a lot of people (myself included) are more than willing to take a vaccine with these risks. As long as there is informed consent, what’s the problem? Banning everyone from getting this vaccine is typical bureaucratic ass-covering. Their incentives are not aligned with ours. They get in trouble if they’re directly responsible for a few deaths, but not if they’re indirectly responsible for hundreds of thousands…

The problem is that it's starting to look more and more like a production problem and a bad batch, and you shouldn't be vaccinated with a product that probably should have failed QA.

It's not bureaucratic ass-covering, it's literally the protocol that's in place and has worked to keep populations safe.

>250 miles of driving gives you a one in a million chance of death. This vaccine is safer than that.

Again you're missing the point. The correct analogy would be: driving on a car that randomly combusts, or has faulty breaks, due to bad QA. And this actually happens/happened, that's why some cars are pulled from the market to be fixed when such things happen. Doesn't matter if it has happened on 1 or 2 cars, it shouldn't happen. Want another analogy?

Want another example? The Boing 737 Max.

You should only be allowed to use products that are working as expected, not faulty products. Specially not medicines and vaccines, that could blow up the trust on regulators and the vaccines.

Re: Germany pauses AstraZeneca vaccinations as a 'precaution'

#515

Post by cutemonster »

mikem170 wrote: post #348
colechristensen wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Why does everything needs to be so politicized with this vaccine It is politicized because it effects more or less everyone on the planet and people are setup to take popular things and turn them into polarizing issues for political power in politicians and social capital for ordinary people. This is how a whole lot of people seek out happiness, by being "right" in their social circles, especially in a way that show…

Agreed. I add that the 24-hour news cycle is in it for the clicks, and they get lots of clicks selling fear. Risk assessment isn't one of our stong suits, either (human nature being what it is).

colechristensen wrote:

> This is how a whole lot of people seek out happiness, by being "right" in their social circles, especially in a way that shows them as superior to large groups

And apparently they do this instinctively, without reflecting about it or understanding what they're doing (they do it also when it gives a silly impression, at least on me). It's hardwired in the brain I'd think

mikem170:

> Risk assessment isn't one of our stong suits, either

Long ago, in a hunter gatherer tribe, almost everything bad that you ever got to hear about, could happen to you too? So there was no need for the brain to get good at risk assessment -- just assuming that everything was "deadly dangerous" made sense, evolutionary?

Doesn't scale up well, with news from the whole planet

Re: Germany pauses AstraZeneca vaccinations as a 'precaution'

#516

Post by libertine »

hntrader wrote: post #383
Dma54rhs wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could use the same arguments and mindset when you're an antivaxx. Vaccines can't be a holy cow that gets defended no matter what. It's always interesting that people who claim to not trust big business big pharma somehow defend everything vaccine related to death. Regulators halted it snd wait for new information to come in, that is how it's supposed to be.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with the decision, I don't know enough about the clotting data to do so, and I can certainly see the necessity in preserving the public's faith in vaccines. I'm more saying that the incentives of regulators/politicians aren't always aligned with public health, since the decision that protects public health and the decision that protects careers aren't always the same thing.

Then it's not political reasons, it's simply self interest.

I like to believe that these institutions - regulators - know better then to cover their asses, because if that was protocol until now for sure there would be a lot of problems with medicines and vaccines.

At leas the European ones (the cases I know) seem to have been pretty competent on their jobs, so I doubt that is a motivation.

Re: Germany pauses AstraZeneca vaccinations as a 'precaution'

#517

Post by libertine »

Google234 wrote: post #469
Koshkin wrote: post #385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we can't assume that it was for the right reasons But what are “the right reasons”? This one is a moral dilemma that has no solution. “OK, let’s kill these 50 people so that that those 5000 could live.” No one in their right mind can propose that.

That decisions is made all the time with drugs that have side effects. Setting the speed limits also is a balance between a deaths and convenience

The thing is that this isn't reported even as a side effect, that's why there's an ongoing investigation.

Re: Germany pauses AstraZeneca vaccinations as a 'precaution'

#518

Post by rleigh »

Kaido wrote: post #268
jonplackett wrote: post #5

Maybe AZ should have charged €3 per shot instead of €2 and spent the extra € on a PR agency. They just seem to be constantly taking a hammering in the press, unfairly I’d say.

It was totally deserved, the EU helped fund the vaccine with a €336 million grant and what they did was stopping the exports from the UK plants to the EU while still exporting from the EU to the UK.No wonder that they didn't delivered the promised doses since their best efforts were being allocated to the UK.

Please provide some evidence for that claim. I've get to see even one bit of confirmation that this happened, just unfounded speculation by politicians playing political games (at the expense of their citizens' own health). The EU even went to raid the Belgian production facility to look for evidence this happened, and I've yet to see any further action after than. Want to bet it was completely made up?

The UK and EU supply chains are completely separate to the best of my knowledge. The UK manufactures and packages its supply, and the EU manufactures and packages its supply.

Re: Germany pauses AstraZeneca vaccinations as a 'precaution'

#519

Post by Broken_Hippo »

ArkanExplorer wrote: post #357
Broken_Hippo wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

THat works great if you don't die. That doesn't work so great if you don't die and have lifelong complications, though. It doesn't work so great if you get it and kill your child/grandmother either. It doesn't work so well if you have to catch the virus multiple times to have immunity either (folks aren't always immune after catching it). Not to mention the unknowns with mutations of the virus. It is seriously much b…

You can calculate the risk for yourself, based on data from the UK: https://qcovid.org/Calculation eg. 30 year old healthy white male: 1 in 7,092 risk of hospitalisation, 1 in 250,000 risk of death. By contrast the risk of death from anything for a 30 year old male in the UK is 1 in 1,215: http://www.bandolier.org.uk/booth/Risk/dyingage.html Even taking a healthy 80 year old male, the risk of death from COVID is 1 in…

As others have said, there is more risk than just death. I don't really want more of a chance to have a poor quality of life for the rest of my life.

The vaccine greatly reduces the chances that I have any of these things. Or heck, it even greatly reduces the chance that I'll have a week or two of misery.

Re: Germany pauses AstraZeneca vaccinations as a 'precaution'

#520

Post by mytailorisrich »

libertine wrote: post #512
mytailorisrich wrote: post #506

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the contrary, I'm just repeating the published data and opinions of experts and indeed health agencies from the WHO to the EMA (European Medical Agency). I think it is therefore those who are calling for who have suspended this vaccine to explain the reasons because they seem to baffle everyone. Bearing in mind the previous 'doubts' some in the EU had about the vaccine's effectiveness for people above 65 I am not…

What published data are you referring to? Because the event that's causing this is in no way within the statistical references most of the British media is pumping out - which is what you're talking about when you say "blood cloths". It's not "just blood cloths", it's the type of cloths, where they are located, with low pallet count, with more incidence on a younger age group, localized in an hospital staff.

Well... Article published 40 minutes ago:

The European Union medicines regulator has reiterated there is "no indication" that the Oxford-AstraZeneca Covid jab causes blood clots, after several countries paused their rollouts.

European Medicines Agency (EMA) head Emer Cooke said she remained "firmly convinced" that the benefits of the vaccine outweighed any risks.

But even if the blood clots observed are in fact due to the vaccine the numbers are so small that it seems to me irresponsible to suspend vaccination and to publicise this so much.

[1] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-56411561

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