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New UK police speed gun can read license plates from half a mile away at night

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Re: New UK police speed gun can read license plates from half a mile away at night

#511
post #509

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> road capacity does not increase with higher speeds Fundamentally untrue. If you reduce the average speed of a section of road, say for example in heavy rain, the capacity or throughput of that section of road is reduced since less vehicles can pass through in the same time. If you can keep drivers attentive enough to maintain safe distance between vehicles, you can increase the speed of a section of road. >> Once…

The capacity of a sufficiently long road section does not increase with speed because the safety distance must also increase with speed. A good rule of thumb is to keep a 2 second (or 3 second) distance between vehicles, and that means that the peak throughput of any single lane is 0.33-0.5 vehicles per second regardless of speed. The total time spent on the road increases and the utility of the road decreases since…

>> The capacity of a sufficiently long road section does not increase with speed

Most roads aren't sufficiently long and there's plenty of other factors and practical road usage is nowhere near this perfect maximum of safe usage but to point out your mathematical error:

For 10 minutes a section of road 1 mile long has traffic pass through it. The cars have 3 second gaps between them.

At 30 mph: 160 cars max throughput At 60 mph: 180 cars max throughput

In the 30mph example, for the first 2 minutes, 0 cars have completed the 1 mile stretch, for the period 2-10 mins, cars pass the finishing line every 3 seconds. 160 cars complete the 1 mile stretch in 10 mins.

In the 60mph example, only the 1st minute is spent without traffic completing the throughput analysis. For the period 1-10 mins, cars pass the finishing line every 3 seconds. 180 cars complete the 1 mile stretch in 10 mins.

Re: New UK police speed gun can read license plates from half a mile away at night

#512
post #508

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who’s suggesting adding new rules?

Well what are you suggesting then? I think enforcing the traffic laws we have is one of the low-hanging fruit for cutting the huge rate of deaths from traffic collisions. Are you proposing something concrete that would be better to spend our time on, or just finding an excuse to do nothing?

Every death should be avoided which should go without saying but this is the internet...

>> huge rate

We don't have huge rates compared to other countries - we're usually in the top 3 major developed countries every year for almost a decade at this point. We also don't have huge rates compared to other causes, e.g. there are under 2,000 road deaths each year but suicides top 6,500 per year.

>> Are you proposing something concrete that would be better to spend our time on

Yes - the solution for 0 road deaths does not exist purely in speed. Further, focussing only on speed has detrimental cost to the country. It's impossible to measure this cost so people ignore it. It is not sound methodology to ignore something simply because it can't be measured.

As i stated upfront, enforcement of inappropriate speed should not be stopped, however, the biggest cause of road fatalaties - inattention - should now become a priority for enforcement.

There is no technical gizmo available today for this therefore this means simply investing in more traffic police. No more complicated than that. I would expect though that some budget diverted from speed enforcement (which is a cost activity to the country despite the revenue it generates) would also be directed to figuring out more efficient ways of enforcing inattention. As i also said up front - this doesn't have to be in penalties, it might be better invested in making it less likely for drivers to be inattentive.

Re: New UK police speed gun can read license plates from half a mile away at night

#513

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that Homo Economicus driving the delivery truck? You'd expect a machine that saves a life every 5 seconds to have some kind of investment in redundancy. Either is spread over more machines or the wonder device has spare parts that are kept stocked. And if not, I'm sure parliament could pass a law to clear the streets for the day.

> Is that Homo Economicus driving the delivery truck? Is it too far of a leap to expect that someone who knows they're doing something where lives are at risk and time is of the essence will rightly estimate that the optimal travel speed is in excess of the ordinary speed at which accountants commute to their office buildings? > You'd expect a machine that saves a life every 5 seconds to have some kind of investment…

All I'm saying is that the example is contrived, it streches credulity. You're making a marginalist argument where the cost of being slow is increased enormously. I could as well make up a scenario where each additional kph increase costs some absurd number of lives, and then it balances wherever you pick the numbers to balance.

> And if not, I'm sure parliament could pass a law to clear the streets for the day.

My scenario is that we run out of parts due to a foreseen supply chain issue, and parliament can then indeed pass a law to let the delivery guy drive faster, assuming the issue is not fixed.

And for your case, there is already a judicial system that will give you a break if these things happen. In the end, and this is what we really mean to be discussing, rules vs discretion ends up with discretion somewhere in the system.

Re: New UK police speed gun can read license plates from half a mile away at night

#514
post #509

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The capacity of a sufficiently long road section does not increase with speed because the safety distance must also increase with speed. A good rule of thumb is to keep a 2 second (or 3 second) distance between vehicles, and that means that the peak throughput of any single lane is 0.33-0.5 vehicles per second regardless of speed. The total time spent on the road increases and the utility of the road decreases since…

>> The capacity of a sufficiently long road section does not increase with speed Most roads aren't sufficiently long and there's plenty of other factors and practical road usage is nowhere near this perfect maximum of safe usage but to point out your mathematical error: For 10 minutes a section of road 1 mile long has traffic pass through it. The cars have 3 second gaps between them. At 30 mph: 160 cars max throughpu…

Yes, you need to double the speed and construct an artificial trafic burst to notice a marginal increase in capacity that is strictly due to the increased delay (and storage capacity) of the slower road. That was my point. In practice trafic ramps up slow enough so that we can ignore the lost capacity due to empty roads in the early hours. After that, it is steady state for both scenarios.

> there's plenty of other factors and practical road usage is nowhere near this perfect maximum of safe usage

Precisely, but this even further argues against high speed limits. If the road tends to be congested, windy, has trafic lights and is poorly maintained, the areas where you can increase the speeds are very limited and the total impact in trip time is low. So high speeds not only not deliver higher throughputs but they fail to even deliver speed.

Re: New UK police speed gun can read license plates from half a mile away at night

#515
post #17

I once saw speed cameras as "un-sporting" until travelling elsewhere in the world where they are commonplace. In those countries, it seems like everyone just drives the speed limit. If the point of speed enforcement is to, you know, ensure that everyone is going the speed limit or slower, they're awesome. Norway's system of timed speed cameras are particularly wonderful -- they simply photograph a car and then photog…

"Norway's system of timed speed cameras are particularly wonderful"

It isn't wonderful at all. UK has average speed cameras as well and they are horrible. Every time I drive in average speed zones I spend more time looking down because

1) I don't want to go 5mi over the speed limit because I will get fined otherwise 2) I don't want to go 5mi below the speed limit because then drivers behind me have to break one by one which eventually causes a traffic jam 3) I can't overtake a lorry going 65 because it would take me too long and I might miss my exit, which then makes anxious because I have to extend my commute time if I get stuck behind one 4) I can't safely let people merge onto the motorway because if I speed up or slow down then 1) or 2) happen 5) I can't calculate my average speed and to avoid 1) and 2) I have to keep looking down not paying much attention to what's going on around me

This only works on roads with little traffic, like in Scotland, where you can set cruise control and drive for miles. It doesn't work in Cambridge where AADT is ten times higher.

"These systems are safer for police and drivers as there are no traffic stops for speeding."

You are comparing average speed cameras to traffic stops, rather than stationary speed traps...

"Can speed cameras be used as a revenue source? Yes."

No because the primary reason for speed cameras is ensuring road safety, not generating revenue in which case you are encouraging installing speed cameras where they are not required. Speed cameras are not as safe you believe they are, otherwise they would be installed every 100 metres.

"Beyond that, if you don't want to get a fine, don't speed."

That's like saying "if you have nothing to hide, you don't need privacy" using the same "don't do the crime, if you can't do the time" principle, which is flawed. There are plenty of situations where you would want to occasionally speed 10% over the speed limit, but that's not equal to speeding 100% over the speed limit for a very long time. Both will get you a fine. It's not as simple as black or white.

Re: New UK police speed gun can read license plates from half a mile away at night

#516

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In 10+ years of driving in the UK, the only time I got caught speeding was in France! Oh, and once in New Zealand. I see signs for the the UK average speed cameras all over the place, but I guess they're tuned to only trigger for vehicles that are significantly exceeding the limit?

"A friend" drove a (non-UK reg) car from Glasgow to Southampton last year, significantly exceeding the speed limit most of the way and maintaining >90mph for multiple hours, and wondered if speeding tickets would later arrive in the post. Nothing ever happened. I can only guess that speed camera tickets are only sent to UK registered vehicles? That's a pretty big loophole. I don't drive like this in France, they will…

I've got another bit of anecdata like that - know a guy who never changed the plates on his French registered van.

Had the misfortune of going somewhere with him once and he was doing 80mph in a 50mph average speed camera bit of motorway - said the police never bother to chase up foreign plates so he just sped everywhere and never got a fine.

Re: New UK police speed gun can read license plates from half a mile away at night

#517

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An unfortunate extension of this is that sometimes, a speed limit will be set very low for no apparent reason, and almost everyone will exceed it significantly if it's not visibly being enforced. This puts a driver who wants to be both safe and legal in a no-win situation. Personally, I liked the idea put forward by one of the UK driver advocacy groups a long time ago. Speed enforcement measures should prioritise pla…

Risk compensation [0] is a relevant idea here. When you give people a highway they will treat it like one. If you want them to slow down, you have to make a road that feels slower. Tighter corners, narrower lanes, parked cars, bulb-outs, etc. In suburban development especially, there is/was an initiative to make roads safer by increasing the physical tolerances relative to the posted limits. So you have all these res…

Designing road systems to encourage an appropriate driving style is valuable. Some non-traditional arrangements have been used to very good effect here in the UK in recent years, though personally I'd say the experiments have had mixed success overall and we've had our share of well-intentioned changes for the worse as well.

That said, it's also important to use these design techniques for clear reasons. Some people don't like motor vehicles and want to deter their use for reasons other than safety. They have been known to argue for road designs that limit capacity or force traffic to go very slowly as a deterrent measure, when perhaps a road designed to support faster speeds could have been just as safe and allowed a more efficient transport system. Sometimes, they even argue for measures that would likely be counterproductive given their stated goals, possibly without understanding why that would be the result. So before you can design a road, you first need to establish what your requirements are and what you're trying to achieve, which is more of a political question than an engineering one.

Re: New UK police speed gun can read license plates from half a mile away at night

#518

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a huge fan of replacing instantaneous speed cameras with average speed cameras. Our city has the most dangerous road in Canada, speeding is the norm not the exception, and I haven’t seen any debate about average speed cameras

I'm curious - which road is that? In Brampton maybe?

I may be wrong, I can't find a source. It's Deerfoot Trail in Calgary.

Re: New UK police speed gun can read license plates from half a mile away at night

#519

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is that Homo Economicus driving the delivery truck? Is it too far of a leap to expect that someone who knows they're doing something where lives are at risk and time is of the essence will rightly estimate that the optimal travel speed is in excess of the ordinary speed at which accountants commute to their office buildings? > You'd expect a machine that saves a life every 5 seconds to have some kind of investment…

All I'm saying is that the example is contrived, it streches credulity. You're making a marginalist argument where the cost of being slow is increased enormously. I could as well make up a scenario where each additional kph increase costs some absurd number of lives, and then it balances wherever you pick the numbers to balance. > And if not, I'm sure parliament could pass a law to clear the streets for the day. My s…

> All I'm saying is that the example is contrived, it streches credulity. You're making a marginalist argument where the cost of being slow is increased enormously.

Things like that actually happen. Hospital generators fail during a power outage. The floodgate machinery for a dam fails and if they can't get it open in time the dam will burst.

Instances exist of someone without lights and sirens on their car having a legitimate need to get somewhere quickly.

> I could as well make up a scenario where each additional kph increase costs some absurd number of lives, and then it balances wherever you pick the numbers to balance.

But then human discretion is deployed in the other direction, and you don't drive the vehicle that fast, even if the vehicle itself doesn't prevent you from doing so.

> And for your case, there is already a judicial system that will give you a break if these things happen.

What we are discussing is having a chip in your car that prevents you from exceeding the speed limit. How is ex post facto judicial understanding supposed to help with that?

Re: New UK police speed gun can read license plates from half a mile away at night

#520
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

America, as well, even in broad daylight: https://www.fox13news.com/news/suspected-bayshore-street-rac...

Police killings are a bigger problem here.

I mean, structurally, you're right that police violence is a bigger problem, but I don't really understand the relevance to my comment when this entire thread was talking about cars.
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