AlphaFold: a solution to a 50-year-old grand challenge in biology
511–520 of 683 posts
Re: AlphaFold: a solution to a 50-year-old grand challenge in biology
#512Earlier quoted context omitted.
The "science" of protein folding has a primary goal: to predict the structure of a protein given it's constituent parts. This is what alphaFold does, and it's been verified to produce results at an apparent accuracy at or above something like X-ray protein crystallography. The advances will come, after these results are validated and accepted by the scientific community as whole, simply when groups start using this t…
This model will be an amazing tool toward a science of protein folding, but we have not "solved" protein folding as long as that remains elusive.
Re: AlphaFold: a solution to a 50-year-old grand challenge in biology
#513Two years ago, after DeepMind submitted its first set of predictions to CASP (Critical Assessment of protein Structure Prediction), Mohammed AlQuraishi, an expert in the field, asked, "What just happened?" https://moalquraishi.wordpress.com/2018/12/09/alphafold-casp... Now that the problem of static protein structure prediction has been solved (prediction errors are below the threshold that is considered acceptable i…
> I don’t think we would do ourselves a service by not recognizing that what just happened presents a serious indictment of academic science. Much like other fields, I do begin to question the academic structure to making advances. It appears something is rotten in the state of academia. Oddly it's academia doing incremental improvements to existing methods but industry making novel leaps and bounds... The other majo…
You have to realize that corporate research labs had a high level of recognition back in the 20th century. Labs like the Bell Labs, the RCA Laboratories, or the IBM Research, privately-funded, had a reputation that met or exceeded the standard of not-for-profit or public-funded academic research institutions. They made some of the most important discoveries in the electronics industry of 20th century, like the point-contact transistor, the MOSFET, VLSI, or the UNIX operating system. They were considered a part of the academia, many scientists were their employees. It's only the 1980s after their death that people had the impression that "important research must come from academia, industry is for incremental changes." So, I'd argue that the division between industry and academia is large, but actually smaller than people's perception. If you consider privately-funded researches by the industry as a part of the academia, the current situation is totally normal, nothing unusual.
Interestingly, for those labs to exist, being a monopolistic megacorp is a requirement. It appears to me that today's FAANG monopoly allowed the creation of Google Deepmind and OpenAI, perhaps it's simply a beginning of the repetition of history.
The article The death of corporate research labs had an interesting review. I highly recommend to read the article:
* The death of corporate research labs
> https://blog.dshr.org/2020/05/the-death-of-corporate-researc...
(HN comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=232466722)
To summarize, those great labs existed and made great contributions because of (1) corporate monopoly on the industry, and (2) the pressure from anti-trust laws. First, due to monopoly, the gigantic size allowed the labs to be the center of gravity and to concentrate all talents and projects into a single place, with a huge research budget for basic research. Second, the pressure from anti-trust laws also forced corporations to invent more into basic research to grow the business, because mergers and acquisitions were restricted. In some cases, the pressure from anti-trust laws also made the corporate labs to share their discoveries in a more open manner, examples included advances in semiconductor [1], or the Unix source code.
Note: but as HN comments pointed out, somewhat ironically, the success of corporate labs relies on anti-trust pressures, but not the actual monopoly-busting enforcement. The breakup of Bell caused the death of the Bell Labs.
Finally their decline,
> The more relaxed antitrust environment in the 1980s, however, changed this status quo. Growth through acquisitions became a more viable alternative to internal research, and hence the need to invest in internal research was reduced.
And it turns out that managing a corporate research labs without losing money is a tricky problem to solve. If the researches are too goal-oriented, short-termism will dominate, basic research in the labs will be ignored. Thus, basic research in the lab must be independent. However, a lab too isolated from the business can also cause great loss.
> Research in corporations is difficult to manage profitably. Research projects have long horizons and few intermediate milestones that are meaningful to non-experts. As a result, research inside companies can only survive if insulated from the short-term performance requirements of business divisions. However, insulating research from business also has perils. [...] Walking this tightrope has been extremely difficult. Greater product market competition, shorter technology life cycles, and more demanding investors have added to this challenge. Companies have increasingly concluded that they can do better by sourcing knowledge from outside, rather than betting on making game-changing discoveries in-house.
And the author argued the death of corporate labs decreased productivity.
>> An unintended consequence of abandoning anti-trust enforcement was thus a slowing of productivity growth, because the this new division of labor wasn't as effective as the labs:
> a new division of innovative labor, with universities focusing on research, large firms focusing on development and commercialization, and spinoffs, startups, and university technology licensing offices responsible for connecting the two.
> The translation of scientific knowledge generated in universities to productivity enhancing technical progress has proved to be more difficult to accomplish in practice than expected. Spinoffs, startups, and university licensing offices have not fully filled the gap left by the decline of the corporate lab. Corporate research has a number of characteristics that make it very valuable for science-based innovation and growth. Large corporations have access to significant resources, can more easily integrate multiple knowledge streams, and direct their research toward solving specific practical problems, which makes it more likely for them to produce commercial applications. University research has tended to be curiosity-driven rather than mission-focused. It has favored insight rather than solutions to specific problems, and partly as a consequence, university research has required additional integration and transformation to become economically useful.
---
[0] https://www.eetimes.com/podcasts/six-words-that-built-the-ic...
> Honeywell brought a lawsuit against us and said you can’t selectively choose people to divulge your technology to. It’s too important. And if you divulge it to anyone, you’ve got to divulge it to everybody. They filed a lawsuit, and the government came down on their side. And RCA basically had to open up all of its patents to everybody if they opened them up to anybody.
Re: AlphaFold: a solution to a 50-year-old grand challenge in biology
#514Additional commentary in Science: https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/11/game-has-changed-ai-... (submitted by furcyd : https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25254888 ).
And in Nature: https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-03348-4
And about dozen news organizations listed in "CASP14 in news" column in the conference homepage: https://predictioncenter.org/casp14/
Re: AlphaFold: a solution to a 50-year-old grand challenge in biology
#515All: there are multiple pages of comments; if you're curious to read them, click More at the bottom of the page, or like this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25253488&p=2 We changed the URL from https://predictioncenter.org/casp14/zscores_final.cgi to the blog post, which has more background info.
I've seen you mention this [More] comment a few times now. I like it, though what if you change the design of the More functionality?
Re: AlphaFold: a solution to a 50-year-old grand challenge in biology
#516Earlier quoted context omitted.
I've seen you mention this [More] comment a few times now. I like it, though what if you change the design of the More functionality?
Also, what do the traffic stats look like for the second/third pages of big threads like this one? Pretty steep falloff?
Edit: ok, for this thread so far, 95% of views are page 1, 4% are page 2, 1% are page 3.
For https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25065026, which had a "more pages" comment at the top: 93% of views were page 1, 5% page 2, 2% viewed page 3.
For https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23155647, which did not have a "more pages" comment at the top: 96% of views were page 1, 3% page 2, 0.5% page 3.
Radically overgeneralizing from that, it seems likely that the pinned comment at the top helps a bit in terms of directing people to later pages. How that compares to the mammoth-single-page scenario is hard to say because we don't know how many readers would be scrolling down that far to see those comments. There's likely a power-law dropoff no matter what we do.
Re: AlphaFold: a solution to a 50-year-old grand challenge in biology
#517Earlier quoted context omitted.
This. I believe technically just linear regression could be considered "machine learning".
I've seen people at bio conferences actively calling linear regression machine learning.
Re: AlphaFold: a solution to a 50-year-old grand challenge in biology
#518I worked in the lab that helped develop folding@home, as well as the game where the crowd was the chaotically trained machine that folded and unfolded one amino acid at a time. This feels like a pretty significant new chapter in the humanity movie. A few times, I get immense pangs of jealousy for younger people a generation or a half before me. And I'm only 30! This is one of those times.
Is the team really that young? 20 year olds?
Re: AlphaFold: a solution to a 50-year-old grand challenge in biology
#519It specifically looks at how AI can be used for predictions.
The show immediately came to mind in reading this news. It aired on Hulu.
Re: AlphaFold: a solution to a 50-year-old grand challenge in biology
#520Two years ago, after DeepMind submitted its first set of predictions to CASP (Critical Assessment of protein Structure Prediction), Mohammed AlQuraishi, an expert in the field, asked, "What just happened?" https://moalquraishi.wordpress.com/2018/12/09/alphafold-casp... Now that the problem of static protein structure prediction has been solved (prediction errors are below the threshold that is considered acceptable i…
> I don’t think we would do ourselves a service by not recognizing that what just happened presents a serious indictment of academic science. Much like other fields, I do begin to question the academic structure to making advances. It appears something is rotten in the state of academia. Oddly it's academia doing incremental improvements to existing methods but industry making novel leaps and bounds... The other majo…
Speaking of which, Google Translate was published in 2006, but when did the "learning from data" approach became an accepted idea in machine translation? I think the earlier attempts at machine translation were more about trying to codify grammar rules in software, than doing statistical learning from large text corpuses? I remember in 2002, the approach of leaning protein substructures from data was already the best performing approach in the protein folding problem.