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FB to curb internal debate over sensitive issues amid employee discord

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Re: FB to curb internal debate over sensitive issues amid employee discord

#511
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is that they're well-educated themselves, persistent, and capable of learning from their mistakes. Earlier attempts were childishly bad. The contemporary ones are better-crafted, and may not be reaching you--I don't know you and can't speak to that--but they are reaching people I know and care about.

Can you rule out that those people they are supposedly reaching don't simply have different values than you and you're currently seeing circumstances that make them alter their stance because it hits a fault line between your values and theirs?

Not entirely, no--arguably we may have similar values, in a sense, but (and this is where the guesswork comes in) may have arrived at them via different paths. I'll posit that the path matters, a lot.

The people in question are current students at my alma mater, where I studied, among other things, Russian language and the former Soviet Union. Some in the current class are likely studying the same, but most aren't, and even those that are, well, they're just starting to study it.

Again--no certainties there, but while I received a fairly decent US high school education, coverage of the cultural and political history of the former Soviet Union is limited by necessity--there's just not enough time to slot that in among everything else US high schoolers are expected to learn.

My gut feeling is that if I'm seeing them share this sort of content, that it's reaching them organically, not because they're finding it after a long time studying the whole of the space over a decade of hobby interest--that's where I'm coming from. The end viewpoints and values may have similarities, but they will be colored by many other factors, and those factors matter.

If that intuition is right, while we may share views in some sense, their view is quite possibly being shaped by actors whose intent is to shape it in a particular direction, who recognize that there are avenues to do so (the amplification/radicalization potential of internet content rabbit holes is well-documented at this point), and who aren't really interested in building a nuanced perspective grounded in mutual understanding of both FSU and American history.

Intuitively, based on their past actions, those actors want the opposite: to (skillfully, mind you) leverage their own nuanced understanding to craft a shallow, targeted narrative that's believable enough, with the primary goal of supporting their own agenda and political goals, not with the goal of building a strong basis of mutual understanding across borders. Is trying to reason about those aims hard, to the point of being nearly impossible to get right? Yes! Entirely! But I don't think the response warranted is "well, it's hard, we should all give up and just see what happens". We must try to instead do the best we can, both in our words and actions in a given moment and with an expectation that we won't be entirely on the mark always, but that we can and should try to watch for our mistakes and catch them as early as we can--that is how we improve and help one another.

So, to sum up, can I rule that out definitively? No. Can I make what I think is a reasonable assessment of what's going based on the information available to me and my own background of knowledge, and recognition of what's changed in the world since I made a similar journey? Hopefully, albeit worryingly, yes. I therefore think it's important to not abdicate any notion of responsibility or to call it a day and agree to disagree on a lot of the nuance--doing so tacitly grants one sort of nuance authority, and the intent behind it may not be entirely benign--historically, it hasn't, and an about face seems unlikely at this time.

Re: FB to curb internal debate over sensitive issues amid employee discord

#512

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is a political opinion itself to think those actions are controversial. No, the existence of controversy over an issue is a question of empirical fact, not political opinion. The ascription of significance to the existence of controversy may be a political opinion (and is certainly a value-based opinion), but not the question of whether controversy exists.

If it's an empirical fact, how much objection from how many (and which) people is enough to cross the line into controversial? You can always find at least one upset person about any significant decision of any company, thus it's inherently political when you decide which group of people or how big a group you have to have to merit the "controversial" badge. Those complaining of being deplatformed would probably agre…

> If it's an empirical fact, how much objection from how many (and which) people is enough to cross the line into controversial?

Any. Controversial is a continuous-valued, not binary, attribute.

How controversial is enough to justify a particular reaction? That's a political judgement, and in practice has as much to do with where you stand on the controversy as how much controversy there is.

Re: FB to curb internal debate over sensitive issues amid employee discord

#513
post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Except they are. They aren't. In fact, the discussions I've seen at companies in the bay area go far beyond the minimum requirements of the law. They aren't about preventing discrimination, they're about actively increasing diversity (in some areas, but not all).

They are about protecting the company. https://classunity.org/racism-and-responsibilization-in-whit...

That's a fantastic read; thank you for sharing it.

Re: FB to curb internal debate over sensitive issues amid employee discord

#514

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's even worse than unavoidable. My company has removed any kind of anonymous discussion/Q&A, which just fuels a mono culture. You only get one-sided discussions because going against the grain will be career suicide.

All this means is that you value your career over the political statement you want to make. The point you want to contribute isn't all that important to you. This is why it's worthwhile listening to people who speak out when there is a cost to themselves - they believe in what they're saying enough to sacrific something for it.

This seems naïve. Cost is a factor.

Greg, a nobody who nobody likes says X thing - X isn't a big deal, and doesn't affect most people and about 45% of people would agree X shouldn't be said, even if it isn't a big deal.

Mark, a senior directo who everybody loves says Y thing - Y is a big deal, but only 10% of people would agree it shouldn't be said.

Guess which will get called out?

Re: FB to curb internal debate over sensitive issues amid employee discord

#515

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In short: to keep doing whatever they want without you opening your mouth. To elaborate: They don’t all pay well. Not even close. And none of them pay workers in other countries well, and they can outsource endlessly with no repercussions. But they want to keep their home in the US (the world military empire) because it lets them do whatever they want. And they don’t pay migrants nearly the same because migrants are…

It sounds like you're saying that Facebook has a lot to lose when employees in the US get upset enough to leave.

Yeah fair haha. But so does the US government if Facebook leaves. I do not actually think the current state of things is sustainable but I don’t think anyone knows how it will resolve.

Re: FB to curb internal debate over sensitive issues amid employee discord

#516

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quitting may make you feel better but it doesn't fix social problems. There's just too many people who can't afford to take a lower paying ethical job.

Saying that doesn't help. It's not true, it's an opinion. Is not a fact, but you're presenting it as a fact. You're saying the future will be bad because there's an endless supply of bad people willing to do bad things. It's a horribly dystopian opinion that disparages the moral action and inhibits good people from doing a good thing: taking a stand against unethical behavior.

I did not say you should not quit, just that it does not fix anything.

What fixes things is organized political action.

Re: FB to curb internal debate over sensitive issues amid employee discord

#517
post #432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are about protecting the company. https://classunity.org/racism-and-responsibilization-in-whit...

Protecting the company makes them sound like a defensive measure, when they seem equally an offensive measure to get ahead of the competition: "use our product, or come work for us, and feel good about yourself!"

They cover the company in the case of discrimination lawsuits.

Re: FB to curb internal debate over sensitive issues amid employee discord

#518
post #513

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are about protecting the company. https://classunity.org/racism-and-responsibilization-in-whit...

That's a fantastic read; thank you for sharing it.

Sure! All the articles on that site are fascinating!

Re: FB to curb internal debate over sensitive issues amid employee discord

#519

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's even worse than unavoidable. My company has removed any kind of anonymous discussion/Q&A, which just fuels a mono culture. You only get one-sided discussions because going against the grain will be career suicide.

All this means is that you value your career over the political statement you want to make. The point you want to contribute isn't all that important to you. This is why it's worthwhile listening to people who speak out when there is a cost to themselves - they believe in what they're saying enough to sacrific something for it.

You are right we should listen more to terroristic suicide bombers because they put their lives on the line for what they believe /s.

Seriously, haven’t they don’t studies that most of these revolutionaries are actually not very smart people. How does risking your life for a cause have anything to do with being correct about an issue?

Re: FB to curb internal debate over sensitive issues amid employee discord

#520

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So individuals can do recreational politics but corporations are free to sink as much of their resources into it as they want? Is your claim that we really need more corporate control over politics in the US and less citizen participation?

Individuals are also free to sink as much of their resources into it as they want. The fact of the matter is political conversations have high risk of annoying/frustrating/alienating their participants. To have these conversations at work is just making employees less productive and asking for a controversy.

And you believe that people being asked to quietly do work for a company advancing politics they disagree with are going to be MORE productive? I know I'd be quietly fuming and doing minimal work for weeks after a mandate like that.
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