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Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

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Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#511
post #461

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand this sentiment. Farming is critical for society. However, we don't require everyone to pull on their overalls and work the land. Security is critical for society. However, we don't expect every person to pick up their machine gun and jump in a trench. Society is nowhere near a population level that is dangerously low. In fact, we are more concerned with overpopulation and overconsumption. If you ha…

> Farming is critical for society. However, we don't require everyone to pull on their overalls and work the land US society heavily subsidizes farming at the government level

Also, "we don't require everyone to pull on their overalls and work the land" is flat out just a bad argument, because modern farming with its high degree of mechanization and vast efficiencies of scale doesn't remotely work like that. Go back several centuries though before modern farming technological development and the majority of people are in fact doing manual farmwork out of necessity.

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#512
post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't fully agree with you. Back when I worked in retail or fast food, smokers could step out for a 5 minute smoke break every once in a while. As a non-smoker, I wasn't allowed to just sit there for 5 minutes. At the end of the day, we got paid the same, but smokers got 30 minutes off, courtesy of the non-smokers who picked up the slack. Likewise, parents are excused from work because they have children. I fully a…

Someone has to provide the goods and services you'll consume when you're old. Those people are today's kids, whose parents are doing you a big favor at considerable expense to themselves. Raising children isn't like smoking, a hobby, a side hustle, or other miscellaneous personal obligations. It's more like military service and jury duty -- an essential service that some people perform to ensure that society as we kn…

>an essential service that some people perform to ensure that society as we know it can continue to exist

I empathize with parents, but please don't make it sound like it's a selfless act they are doing for the good of society.

Also, childless couples/singles get taxed at quite a high rate (after any returns) vs parents. You compound that over 21 or whatever years it takes for kids to become "productive". Furthermore, people who choose to stay childless still have to work and pay higher taxes till the age of at least 66 in US. Life expectancy for males is 78, so that gives you 12 years. Social security is in no way enough, and you must survive on pension that you paid into for your retirement. So the child that I helped raised with my extra taxes and without any preferential treatment at work will never even come close to paying me back.

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#513
post #132
post #43

I'd be happy to do some overtime to help people with children in my company. Even as a childless single, I chose a family friendly company because it aligns with my personal values.

That's very noble, but do you believe that your choice should be forced onto others?

Others can choose not to work at that company, right? In this scenario, nobody is being forced -- in either direction.

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#514
post #160

I am a middle-aged adult with no children who's worked at tech firms for the past couple decades. To be honest, the "resentment" of those without children have for "benefits" those with children get strikes me as extremely selfish, immature and displaying a total lack of empathy. This is time off specifically to take care of children, something now that has become exceedingly more difficult in Covid times. What's nex…

I don't fully agree with you. Back when I worked in retail or fast food, smokers could step out for a 5 minute smoke break every once in a while. As a non-smoker, I wasn't allowed to just sit there for 5 minutes. At the end of the day, we got paid the same, but smokers got 30 minutes off, courtesy of the non-smokers who picked up the slack. Likewise, parents are excused from work because they have children. I fully a…

Perspective from someone with a child (1.25 years old):

When my wife and I chose to have a kid, there was absolutely no reason to think that we would have any difficulty finding a nanny/daycare or that we would have to try to work in the same environment that our son is playing in. When COVID-19 restrictions went into effect, we had basically no notice that we would be expected to work from home full time, that our building's common areas would all be closed a few days later, that our nanny would be unable to make the commute (no license should not have been in issue in NYC) and that daycares would all be closed exactly when we needed to find one, etc. We had to move just to get an extra room that could be used as an "office," because working from the kitchen table is impossible when a baby wants to crawl up to you, pull himself into a standing position, and grab whatever you are "playing" with.

Even with the extra room, we still have trouble. Our son walks (and runs) now and is beginning to understand how doorknobs work, but he still has no concept of leaving us alone to do our work. If he has the chance to run into our office he will, and if he does not he sometimes bangs on the door and cries when nobody opens it. Either way it is a huge distraction that makes it much harder to get anything done. Try explaining to a toddler that mommy and daddy are working and see how far you get. We also continue to see chaos with our childcare arrangements, which takes its toll on productivity.

Your side hustle is optional and can be put on hold. When you already have kids you cannot stop being a parent and children cannot be paused. I agree that employers should give people time for "personal obligations," and in fact mine does and my boss has been using that time to check in on elderly parents, but the fact is that parenting is one of the few 24x7 personal obligations. It is not like I can say that I am setting aside one day a week or two hours per day to be a parent.

As hard as it is to deal with a toddler while trying to work, it is harder for parents who are being told that they must supervise their children's schoolwork. It is easy to forget that part of the job of a teacher is to watch over the kids in their classroom and ensure they are not just goofing off all day, but with kids doing "school from home" that is now the job of their parents. Again, it comes down to having someone else there to take on that job while parents are working, and again it is not a question of time and it is not something optional that people can put on hold until the crisis is over.

Basically there is no way to make any of this sustainable. COVID restrictions make childcare arrangements more difficult and less reliable, but those gaps must be filled and in the end it is parents who have to fill them (if someone else could do so, then it would not be a 'gap').

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#515

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ignoring the obvious downsides for a moment, I'd happily trade places with one of my childless coworkers right about now. This morning I went up and down the stairs at least ten times while trying to get my 7- and 9-year old kids successfully established in their first remote learning session, simultaneously participating in two consecutive Zoom meetings with coworkers, and figuring out how to solve a nagging issue i…

> the obvious downsides They're not obvious to me... What are the downsides?

To switch places, the implication is I'd not have my kids. I can't fathom a life without them. Perhaps it didn't need to be added as a qualification.

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#516

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Glad to hear you're taking responsibility for your life choices in this time of hardship. But... that's what you signed up for when you made the decision to have a child. I guess the question is: Do you believe that you should receive benefits above and beyond those of childless adults because of your life choices? That the act of becoming a parent is so sacred it should grant you benefits in otherwise unrelated area…

We have a saying here: " Today for you, tomorrow for me. " I'm not sure how is the best translation. I have a few teacher assistants in the university, and when possible we try to cover each other and keep the class going. Some problems are not related to kids. * When the parents die, sometimes you must go all the previous week to the hospital. Or in a better scenario, you have to help your parents to go to the docto…

> We have a saying here: "Today for you, tomorrow for me."

It sounds most likely to be 'reciprocity', but could also be evoking either the notion of 'reaping what you sow' or the notion of 'paying it forward'

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#517
post #260
post #56

This feels like a symptom of a society that has accepted the act of completely outsourcing child-rearing clashing with an event that makes that outsourcing impossible. Being able to work full time while comfortably having other people/institutions raise your child seems like a privilege. Now we are just seeing what happens when that privilege is taken away. I can't help but imagine there are a bunch of parents out th…

Being able to work full time while kids attend school isn't a privilege, it's often a necessity, at least in many parts of the US. Until relatively recently, supporting my family of four required both my partner and I to work full time. Raising kids is an expensive endeavor. Luckily, I've advanced in my career enough that I can now support my family on my own.

You are right, but I think you are missing the context of the article. While I'd like to avoid generalizations, most employees of SV tech giants aren't exactly struggling to get by. These are employees that can now work from home (another privilege many parents don't have) a high paying jobs - the ones that usually afford them to be able to hire childcare so that they can work through the day.

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#518

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did your kid like the cat you drew?

Cat in question https://ibb.co/ZVfjzB3

Excellent cat A++++++++ would pet. Agree with sibling, this is the only good subthread in this trash fire.

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#519

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ignoring the obvious downsides for a moment, I'd happily trade places with one of my childless coworkers right about now. This morning I went up and down the stairs at least ten times while trying to get my 7- and 9-year old kids successfully established in their first remote learning session, simultaneously participating in two consecutive Zoom meetings with coworkers, and figuring out how to solve a nagging issue i…

And you still have time for HN!

Yeah, I am pretty capable of procrastination. HN is a tempting alternative to drawing up another Miro diagram, or studying for my algorithms class (something else I can blame on HN, I might never have heard of OMSCS if not for someone mentioning it here ;-)). There was a time when I knew dynamic programming well enough to pass an algorithms class, but that time was in the 90s. I feel old now.

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#520

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a team of 4 people. 2 have families, 2 don't. The ones that don't picked up the slack for the ones that did. Work quality was equal, but output was greater for the singles. The team has 2 slots for promotion. Do you ignore the fact that the single people put in more work or do you factor it in in the promotion decision?

Neither. The failure is with the team's manager. The team's leadership should have reduced the workload of the team. It starts at the top. I work at a (non-tech) Fortune 50 and the message from the CEO on down has been the same: take vacation, take care of your family, some priorities/projects for this year will not be met and that is fine.

By how much? 30 hours per week? 20 hours? 5 hours? GP didn't mention that the workload was bad, just than on average parents seems to get similar benefit for the lesser effort and hours than non parents. You just wrote this to evade saying anything negative.

The clear question is should the expectations be reduced for parents for similar promotion or not? And if your answer is yes, then by how much?

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