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Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

timjrobinson.com

511–520 of 1001 posts

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#511
The basic problem is that efficient producer types make terrible consumers. From my industrious friends to Warren Buffet, they don't care to spend the wealth they accumulate. The dollars move more slowly, often to the hands of rent-seeking institutions. When they do consume on a large scale, it funds innovative of extravagance. Its fundamentally ineffective and inefficient relative to other models.

Given resources, consumers are remarkably efficient at consuming. My neighborhood is alive with home improvement projects, enabled by direct cash payments. The money isn't going idle. These dollars are flowing throughout communities into places that large money cannot reach. The velocity of these dollars is at least an order of degrees faster than sitting in an individual's offshore account. This invigorates production, adaptation, and research in ways a grant or tax discount cannot.

I often hear we live in a consumer-driven economy. If that is the case, its only prudent to empower consumption across the broadest possible base to grow the economy. The more I think about it, the more it seems like excluding people from being able to earn and spend money is actually sacrificing macroeconomic growth in exchange for social control.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#512
post #478

I support the idea of UBI in principle, but I think it needs to be combined with a land value tax in order to work as intended. Rents are charged at the highest the market will bear, so the UBI could just flow into the hands of landlords, and the people who it is supposed to help being no better off.

Why is that wrong? Given you will have progressive taxes. Land lords will be paying for your UBI more than others would will be paying for it. The idea is here is not to punish the rich. But it's more on the lines of ensuring every one has something to rely on if they don't have a job.

It’s wrong because it’s inefficient and leaves the UBI recipient no better off. In San Francisco, as an example, rental rates track remarkably close to the after-tax first paycheck of the month for the median tech worker. Every year rents and salaries go up in lock step. At the end of the day only the landlords are wealthier.

If UBI were X per month, we would see rents go up by X very very quickly. This is just what happens when a real estate market is inefficient and supply constrained.

Land value tax punishes the underutilization of land, creating a reason for property owners to redevelop underutilized land and add more supply. It also creates an incentive for the average homeowner to be more amenable to extra housing, as that homeowner doesn’t want their taxes going up due to increased land value.

You can see this in practice in Texas vs California. Texas has very high properly taxes (2.5-3%) and reassesses annually. California taxes are closer to 1% and essentially locked at the purchase price of your home no matter how much if appreciates.

As a result, homeowners in Texas are a lot more supportive of new housing compared to those in California who almost universally oppose it.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#513
post #383

There are a lot of people here dissenting on the idea of UBI on the premise that they find meaning in work, and to take the incentive to work away will lead others (themselves included) not to have meaning in life. I’ve taken a year off of work to start a business that failed and spent the past few months hanging out with my kids. At first, my stress levels were high because daycares were shut down and I was panickin…

The lack of real world experience on a HackerNews UBI discussion is infuriating. Western society's white collar elite are completely unaware of truly how many "sucky" jobs there are in the world that all enable our (currently) superior standard of living. Your entire existence relies on a globalist system of slave level labor producing products from all corners of the world. Automation of every industry is impossible…

> The lack of real world experience on a HackerNews UBI discussion is infuriating. Western society's white collar elite are completely unaware of truly how many "sucky" jobs there are in the world that all enable our (currently) superior standard of living.

Your comment makes it complete clear you have a severe lack of real world experience.

Go to a wealthy country. I mean an actual wealthy one where even lower class people are paid well enough to buy a house, have a project car, get at least 6 weeks vacation a year, get generous maternity leave etc. etc.

Now look around and notice that all those sucky jobs you talks about are getting done.

Also notice that in those wealthy countries people can quite readily choose to get welfare to the tune of a few grand a month. They could perfectly sit around and do nothing and get enough money to live, if they wanted to.

But they don't.

Why do you think that is? It's because they're paid well to do those jobs. As long as jobs (even sucky ones) pay well, there will always be a line of people willing to do them.

If there are no people willing to do them, pay more.

As a real-world example I used to live in one such country and I worked in a factory stacking boxes. All day, every day. Pick up box, turn around, put down box. Starting hourly rate was $45/hr. Time and half on Sundays. Double time on a holiday. No union, those were just the pay rates. The company I worked for still made a healthy profit, and so did the end company the boxes were being stacked for (Safeway, actually)

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#514

A UBI paid for with a carbon tax would both save us from the worst consequences of global warming and stimulate the economy. It's hard to find a rational excuse for not doing it. Planet Money did a great episode on this idea over 7 years ago: https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2013/07/12/201502003/epis... They did a followup 5 years later: https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2018/07/18/630267782/epis... It seems like…

Disagree strongly that you should combine UBI and carbon tax to same policy framework.

Carbon tax needs to function globally. An UBI scheme will be - for the foreseeable future - a local policy enacted within the borders of a sovereign political entity.

The economic actions of every human being must somehow be encompassed in the carbon tax scheme.

UBI on the other hand, is about how local governments wish to split and spread the dole.

Were you to combine these two into one, it would mean massive capital flows from the rich countries to the poor. It did not work well in the scope of development aid. You could say development aid has only made third world poorer.

If you could give this "global UBI" to people personally it might work better - stimulating local markets and entrepreneurs. Because everybody likes to get rich, and once you have UBI-loaded consumers everywhere, suddenly it makes more sense to offer services and products that were economically untenable before.

So if you could in some non-dystopian scifi future give direct UBI payments to people personally, then maybe this would make sense. But while we are seemingly moving towards a world with unconstrained financial services for everyone, we are not there yet! And we need carbon tax yesterday!

How are we not there yet? Well, according to the Economist, for example only half of the people in Latin America have a bank account. We can imagine that we can leapfrog to a future where everyone has a bank account through mobile banking services, but - not there yet!

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#515
post #509

How employers would reason when their employees start getting UBI? "Hmm, I was paying my employees say $1000/mo that was barely enough to survive. Now government gives them $500/mo. That means that I can can subtract $500/mo from their salary".

Which is precisely why we have minimum wage laws, and why people are free to choose where they work.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#517

There are a lot of people here dissenting on the idea of UBI on the premise that they find meaning in work, and to take the incentive to work away will lead others (themselves included) not to have meaning in life. I’ve taken a year off of work to start a business that failed and spent the past few months hanging out with my kids. At first, my stress levels were high because daycares were shut down and I was panickin…

My problem with UBI is that why would giving out "free money" change the world?

Say I'm your landlord and you pay me $100/mo for rent. Now you start getting UBI thats $500/mo. Why wouldn't I increase my rent to $200/mo, $300/mo, or even $400/mo? I know that now you can afford the increase. So you'd still have to earn income if you wanted to stay in that place. All I see is prices going up for anything and everything in population centers.

Only option for people who want the benefit of UBI (i.e. freedom to do whatever they want and not worry about working for a living) would be to move in smaller cities/towns where the demand for the housing is already low enough that price hiking wouldn't make sense.

I also feel like UBI would divide the world even more wealth wise. People on UBI wouldn't be able to afford luxury goods or events since thous would be still aimed at the working people and for people to still work they would have to earn significantly more than what they would get on UBI. Putting this in other words: UBI would be the literal bare minimum to keep a roof over your head and food in your fridge. Forget streaming services. Forget eating out. Forget going to movies/concerts/theater.

Easier way is to think UBI as "free meal" tickets and free housing. Which doesn't sound all that appealing.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#518
A UBI seems to me like an overly complicated way to just give everybody a free food, cloths, shelter, electricity, internet, and medicine. Why don't we just make that stuff free.

Every person can just go to a special Costco like store and spend x credits a month taking whatever they want. That way we can just make that stuff as efficiently as possible, rather than messing with the whole economy.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#520
post #348

Why give free money to everyone? Clearly a rich person doesn’t need a monthly check from government... Milton Friedman long ago proposed a negative income tax to replace means-tested welfare programs. Essentially, people below a certain income threshold would receive money which scales to a maximum the closer their income approaches zero. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_income_tax I do think people radically…

> Why give free money to everyone? Clearly a rich person doesn’t need a monthly check from government... Because then you need to test for means, and that means you have to hire new bureaucracy to conduct those tests, and then pay their benefits and pensions and travel expenses, and then you need to hire additional bureaucracy to address occasional loopholes in your checks, and then 10-20-50-100 years later you're ba…

I hear this argument a lot but it makes no sense to me. Suppose UBI is $12k/year. Then as long as it costs less than $12k to identify a rich person, it’s cheaper to not pay the rich people than to pay everyone.

In fact, we already have any agency that does this for most Americans called the IRS. The budget of the IRS is $12 billion, which comes out to about $100 per taxpayer. The cost of the IRS administering the tax system is less than 1% of the value of the money it raises. The IRS does things like check if people are eligible for credits and deductions they claim, and if they are due a refund. Clearly it’s much cheaper to employ an agency like the IRS to check the numbers than it is to just pay everyone. Increases to the budget of the IRS raise tax revenues, yielding a positive return. And since we already have the IRS, we don’t even need to fund a new agency to do this work for UBI. Compared to the overall cost of the UBI program (trillions of dollars) it would be trivial to fund the IRS to do means-testing. This would make UBI a much cheaper program, so it would be easier to fit into the budget.

I don’t doubt that local welfare agencies are a shitty bureaucracy, and I wouldn’t advocate putting them in charge of UBI.

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