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Follow-up to “The dystopian world of software engineering interviews”

jarednelsen.dev

511–520 of 538 posts

Re: Follow-up to “The dystopian world of software engineering interviews”

#511
post #499

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t believe it, you sound totally cut out to be a dev in today’s culture to me. :) If you’re experiencing issues interviewing, there are lots of things that could be going wrong. It might be the types of jobs and/or companies you’re applying for. You might be shooting slightly too high or too low for your experience level. You mentioned plainly that you’d work for not much money, that could (perhaps surprisingly)…

Never even gets that far. What's sad, is that people like me used to be represented by a certain kind of recruiter, more akin to a literary agent. They'd beat the bush, and get a portion of the take from that. Apparently, this type of job no longer exists. I suspect that the big aggregator sites, like monster.com and Hired are responsible for that. It's been a rather sobering experience. At one time, I had to fight o…

> What's sad, is that people like me used to be represented by a certain kind of recruiter, more akin to a literary agent. They'd beat the bush, and get a portion of the take from that.

> Apparently, this type of job no longer exists. I suspect that the big aggregator sites, like monster.com and Hired are responsible for that.

I’ve worked with Code Talent both when building out a team and when seeking a position myself and found that they work very much like this. I haven’t dealt with them recently, but they seem to still be going strong and doing what they do. I wouldn’t hesitate to reach out to them were I look to hire or find opportunities in the Denver area. Other than as a satisfied client on both sides of the table, I have no relationship with them.

https://www.code-talent.com/

Re: Follow-up to “The dystopian world of software engineering interviews”

#512

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Knowing the literal, actual algorithm to the point that you could simply open up a terminal and bash it out yourself is rarely important in this era. Yeah. In a world where Google exists (or even where Knuth exists), what's the value in having algorithms memorized? Knowing the characteristics, sure. I agree that that's important. But the algorithms themselves? Why? I've got better things to do with the memory space…

There's no value in memorizing algorithms. There is, however, a lot of value in the ability to solve algorithmic tasks. I don't think anybody is intentionally structuring interviews to measure how many algorithms a candidate has memorized... interviewers are looking for the ability to solve problems, they just... fail at doing that.

In principle, my interviews, which tend to be a lot more about "take this text from a DB and process it in this way and display it on a web page" are algorithmic too. I mean, if anyone's writing code, they're writing algorithms. But there's day-by-day algorithms where you're basically gluing lots of things together, and there's Project Euler problems. In my 20+ years of software engineering, I've personally encountered maybe 3 or 4 Project Euler-type problems in my real job. (And even those weren't as clean as those problems; I still had to integrate them back into some other real-world code base.) Expecting your candidates to be good at inverting red-black trees recursively when you want them to hook databases to web pages without massive security vulnerabilities or performance issues is silly.

"Gluing lots of things together" is a descriptive term, not a derogatory one. There's a ton of things you need to know to be a good gluer nowadays; security, performance characteristics of all the pieces, we're adding more and more distribution into our systems, higher level stuff like integrating with teams, documentation of your code, how your workflow goes... there's more than enough to interview all day on these issues without ever having to quiz the candidate on puzzles from the back of a Knuth book.

(This is agreement with you, not disagreement.)

Re: Follow-up to “The dystopian world of software engineering interviews”

#513
post #485

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> hiring managers, who perhaps often don’t have the time, interest, or even ability to read someone’s portfolio to determine the quality of the code. Then perhaps this person should not be interviewing in the first place? Why should an unqualified hiring manager somehow asses the candidates technical abilities ? This seems really bizarre to me. Imagine putting someone who is clueless about the medical field in charge…

I think you misunderstood my comment about whether a hiring manager has the ability to judge online code, I wasn't suggesting they're incompetent, I'm trying to point out that you can't expect even an amazing programmer with decades of experience to understand what the hell you were trying to do with your code -- in a reasonable amount of time. Styles and goals can be as different as night and day. I believe I'm a ve…

> you can't expect even an amazing programmer with decades of experience to understand what the hell you were trying to do with your code -- in a reasonable amount of time.

... That's a software engineer's everyday job, specially when just starting a new gig. In fact, the "reasonable time" part is often a pipe dream.

Someone unwilling (or unable) to read and try to understand someone else's codebase has no place doing technical interviews. That's literally the first thing that a new hire has to do.

You might have half point if you were saying that you discuss someone's portfolio during the interview (which would be analogous with the new hire discussing the code with the rest of the team to better gauge the decisions made), but you've said that you dismiss it and instead defend tests.

Speaking of that defense of tests: surgeons also had to do tests in medical school, yet they're not asked to perform routine surgery as part of their interviews (that I know of). This is to say that you were using a false equivalency.

> I'm sorry it's less comfortable than posting online, but it's reality.

Evidently, it isn't. What makes it easy for you (which is ultimately the real reason for those pointless tests) is not the optimal process. It's, in fact, the entire problem discussed in the FA and the comments here.

> Leetcode doesn't have more weight than projects in my book, and I didn't mention it, neither did the top comment

From the top comment:

>> At least, that was the reason they gave for ignoring the links I sent, and instead, giving a binary tree "Draw Spunky" test (I don't do well on them; never have, never will. I spend exactly 0.0 hours on HackerRank [emphasis mine], practicing).

What exactly were you going for?

> The discussion in this sub-thread was about interviews & online portfolios

One of the main points of the top comment was the explicit and deliberate dismissal of the commenter's portfolio in favor of leetcode type tests. I refer to the paragraph I just quoted.

> and it's really, really hard to [stand out as a programmer] with code alone.

Interesting, most of the programmers I know of, I know of them because their code is great; I'm here mostly thinking of authors of widely used open source software.

To reference a famous anecdote: I'd hire the creator of homebrew on the spot. You wouldn't even give him an interview.

> you can take more control of your interviews, and work to protect your own time.

In other words: Potential candidates should make your job easier by continuing the drill this whole discussion is about instead of complaining about how ineffective it is. How much of a problem this whole charade is.

That's just borderline insulting, and it's pretty clear that it is deliberate. I'm surprised it flew here, specially considering the featured article(s) and most of the other comments.

> If you paid attention in school and understand algorithms, them [sic] you should think of algorithm questions as the easy part of the interview, something you can pass without problems.

You called yourself a great programmer, I'll make no comment on that, but you've given me a good idea for how to screen which engineers should participate in interviews for when I have my own company: I'll ask them what they think of algorithm questions and I'll ask them whether they think that what is taught in college should be enough to pass those questions.

If they respond on the affirmative, I'll ask them the most obscure thing I can think of from any of my physics or calculus classes. Hey, after all, they "studied that in college", they ought to remember it even though it would be a gigantic coincidence if they ever actually had to use that knowledge in their job, and the question should be an easy point, correct?

Hopefully that will be a teachable moment, on how responding on the affirmative was wrong, maybe even unethical (because I sure wouldn't have asked that during their own interviews, with one caveat).

And this is, of course, ignoring the whole point of the featured article and the original one this is a follow up to: algorithm questions have devolved into being far more difficult than anything anyone had to do in college and they're something that 99% of candidates would never have done, or needed, in any previous job.

> The questions are there to see if you care about algorithms and understand the basics.

They aren't, GP comment was on the money by saying that they're just there for the interviewer to feel smart.

> Don't take them personally, and understand that the questions are for all candidates, and they need to filter people out who don't know algorithms.

Filtering out people who don't remember (as opposed to not knowing; for remembrance only a short refresher is needed, but that's something that a coding test doesn't give the time for) algorithms is a terrible practice unless the company doing the hiring is explicitly researching for algorithm design and creating knowledge as opposed to applying existing knowledge.

Or, in short, most people won't ever need to dive deeply into algorithm design in this field (most, if not all, of the algorithms needed are already baked into the commonly used libraries), meaning that filtering out the ones that don't remember is pointless at best, self-defeating at worst.

For the very rare cases (outside of the aforementioned companies that need to create new stuff for their products) where reimplementing an algorithm is needed (and there better have been enough research to know that it's not an example of NIH), a couple of hours of getting reacquainted with them is often enough.

> So stop complaining about the easy questions

You've given no reason to. In fact, by rationalizing it, you helped me see with even more clarity how much of a problem this is.

> Also, just FYI people who complain about certain kinds of interview questions is a small red flag in my book.

That's good, every person you rejected for that reason (along with the ones rejected over tests, specially if they had portfolios) clearly wasn't a culture fit and they are better off in a different company.

I just wish they could have dodged the whole hiring process you employ. Then again, I wish that for everyone, myself included.

> If you love programming, algos might not be the exact thing you want to do, but it's part of the job pre-requisites and basic knowledge

They aren't prerequisite for 99% of the jobs and I would say that, if you love programming, you would, well, program and let everyone know you do, like by contributing to open source software and building a portfolio. And yet you would barely spend a second of your time looking at someone's portfolio.

So whose criteria for "someone who loves programming" is the right one?

Finally, a disclaimer: I often do well in those stupid tests and have never spent more than a few weeks in between jobs, while my online portfolio is pathetically barren. Just to put in perspective that one can hate everything about the problem and rightfully complain about it while still having to play, and mostly knowing how to play, that awful game.

Re: Follow-up to “The dystopian world of software engineering interviews”

#514
post #511

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Never even gets that far. What's sad, is that people like me used to be represented by a certain kind of recruiter, more akin to a literary agent. They'd beat the bush, and get a portion of the take from that. Apparently, this type of job no longer exists. I suspect that the big aggregator sites, like monster.com and Hired are responsible for that. It's been a rather sobering experience. At one time, I had to fight o…

> What's sad, is that people like me used to be represented by a certain kind of recruiter, more akin to a literary agent. They'd beat the bush, and get a portion of the take from that. > Apparently, this type of job no longer exists. I suspect that the big aggregator sites, like monster.com and Hired are responsible for that. I’ve worked with Code Talent both when building out a team and when seeking a position myse…

Thanks. I'll check them out. I'm in NY, where the tech industry is sort of like Logan's Run. There's very few folks over thirty-five.

Re: Follow-up to “The dystopian world of software engineering interviews”

#515
post #513
post #485

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you misunderstood my comment about whether a hiring manager has the ability to judge online code, I wasn't suggesting they're incompetent, I'm trying to point out that you can't expect even an amazing programmer with decades of experience to understand what the hell you were trying to do with your code -- in a reasonable amount of time. Styles and goals can be as different as night and day. I believe I'm a ve…

> you can't expect even an amazing programmer with decades of experience to understand what the hell you were trying to do with your code -- in a reasonable amount of time. ... That's a software engineer's everyday job, specially when just starting a new gig. In fact, the "reasonable time" part is often a pipe dream. Someone unwilling (or unable) to read and try to understand someone else's codebase has no place doin…

Hi there, thanks for reading my comment and replying. I don’t know why what I wrote has made you so angry, but I am not trying to insult you or anyone. I might be unintentionally saying things in a style that’s bugging you, I apologize for that, but my intent is to offer some insights about what’s important to an interviewer when interviewing for a job. Younger coders seem to believe that technical ability should be the only criteria, and it’s not the only criteria. Please contrast my generic statements not directed at you, statements that might be accidentally making you mad, with your many personal insults directed at me. I don’t particularly appreciate it, but in the end it’s only reflecting poorly on you, not on me. If someone who was interviewing you read your comment, do you think they’d want to hire you more?

I can see that you’re frustrated by interviews. Why don’t you tell me more about your experience and what about interviews isn’t working for you? You said you’ve never gone long in between jobs, so why are interviews bothering you so much? If you’re just commenting on the awful game, why are you taking it personally and insulting me?

You took much offense to my explanation of algorithm questions without acknowledging that I agreed with the GP comment that many companies might be doing it for the wrong reasons. Still, that doesn’t make it a good idea to just speculate on the reasons companies use algorithms questions. Just because you feel like they’re pointless and interviewers are trying to feel smart doesn’t mean it’s true. Jumping to a negative conclusion isn’t the best idea, even if you’re right.

The person who’s criteria matters for loving programming is you.

Re: Follow-up to “The dystopian world of software engineering interviews”

#516
post #485

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> hiring managers, who perhaps often don’t have the time, interest, or even ability to read someone’s portfolio to determine the quality of the code. Then perhaps this person should not be interviewing in the first place? Why should an unqualified hiring manager somehow asses the candidates technical abilities ? This seems really bizarre to me. Imagine putting someone who is clueless about the medical field in charge…

I think you misunderstood my comment about whether a hiring manager has the ability to judge online code, I wasn't suggesting they're incompetent, I'm trying to point out that you can't expect even an amazing programmer with decades of experience to understand what the hell you were trying to do with your code -- in a reasonable amount of time. Styles and goals can be as different as night and day. I believe I'm a ve…

Well...we see things differently. I won't go into it. I've made a commitment to behave circumspectly in my online interactions. Take note that I link to my complete background in my HN handle. I am deliberately putting myself in the position of being held accountable for what I post. I can't please everybody, and, in today's culture, everyone seems to be looking to pounce on everyone else. Rather sad. I can't fix the culture, but I can just make sure that I don't become infected by it, and contribute to it.

If I have to become the culture in order to participate in it, then I will just take my toys and play in my own sandbox. I won't compromise my personal ethos, just because everyone else is.

As a manager, I took my Responsibilities very seriously. I worked for an extremely frugal and conservative corporation, and had to fight like a badger to get headcount. Making sure that the person that filled that headcount was top-notch was critically important, and I spent a great deal of time evaluating résumés and interviewing candidates. I would have killed for information like what you can get from a well-stocked SO story. Each candidate was a potential "family member." I kept them for decades. Japan wouldn't even recognize their existence until they'd been there for over a year.

Have you ever seen a designer get ready for an interview? I was trained as an artist (way back when), and know the drill.

They bring a large (usually black) case with them. It contains samples of their work; often including things like sketches and layout exercises. They go over the contents of this case with the interviewer; often telling stories about how they addressed some kind of issue, or the creative process that went into the work. I guess they may bring a laptop with them, these days.

No design manager in their right mind would ever think of ignoring the portfolio, and, instead, throw a matchbook on the table, and ask the designer to "Draw Spunky."

Re: Follow-up to “The dystopian world of software engineering interviews”

#517
post #515
post #513

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you can't expect even an amazing programmer with decades of experience to understand what the hell you were trying to do with your code -- in a reasonable amount of time. ... That's a software engineer's everyday job, specially when just starting a new gig. In fact, the "reasonable time" part is often a pipe dream. Someone unwilling (or unable) to read and try to understand someone else's codebase has no place doin…

Hi there, thanks for reading my comment and replying. I don’t know why what I wrote has made you so angry, but I am not trying to insult you or anyone. I might be unintentionally saying things in a style that’s bugging you, I apologize for that, but my intent is to offer some insights about what’s important to an interviewer when interviewing for a job. Younger coders seem to believe that technical ability should be…

> Younger coders seem to believe that technical ability should be the only criteria, and it’s not the only criteria.

You're the one defending rote tests (that literally only test for technical knowledge), not me nor anyone who replied to you (as far as I read).

From my previous comment:

>> You might have half point if you were saying that you discuss someone's portfolio during the interview (which would be analogous with the new hire discussing the code with the rest of the team to better gauge the decisions made), but you've said that you dismiss it and instead defend tests.

I value discussion, that's ultimately one of the things that matters most for a developer. And, mind you, thanks to git platforms (GitLab, GitHub, etc.) this is also becoming more transparent in portfolios, like by looking at how the candidate handles merge/pull requests and issues.

> your many personal insults directed at me.

Could you quote which sentences in my previous comment were personal insults? I'd like to know where I phrased myself poorly and apologize and/or explain my intent.

> If someone who was interviewing you read your comment, do you think they’d want to hire you more?

If someone who was interviewing me disagreed with any of my points, I guess not. Then again, I wouldn't want to work in such a company either; making it a win win situation.

I fail to see how this sentence is apropos anyway, HN isn't a job board.

> You said you’ve never gone long in between jobs, so why are interviews bothering you so much?

That's all but spelled out in the article and most of the comments, but I'll share my experience explicitly: I am yet to have a job, that used those leetcode type tests or generic coding challenges as part of the hiring process, where I needed to use the knowledge required for the tests or the challenges in the actual job.

It's a gigantic waste of time, testing for all the wrong things.

> Just because you feel like they’re pointless and interviewers are trying to feel smart doesn’t mean it’s true.

I'm yet to find a counterexample in any job I've had. You seem to be mistaking your own experience (assuming you actually do those tests for the "right" reasons) as the norm. Though I guess all of us are a little bit at fault of that.

> Jumping to a negative conclusion isn’t the best idea, even if you’re right.

You are the one who told someone else to stop complaining and even made another not-apropos comment about how complaining is a red flag. There's no way to interpret that other than negatively. If there is, I would love to read what you meant by that.

> The person who’s criteria matters for loving programming is you.

Alas, evidently it doesn't, because even hiring managers/interviewers/recruiters who comment in HN posts about the awful state in hiring for software engineers think that rote algorithm tests are of utmost importance, and I don't particularly agree.

Re: Follow-up to “The dystopian world of software engineering interviews”

#518
post #485

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you misunderstood my comment about whether a hiring manager has the ability to judge online code, I wasn't suggesting they're incompetent, I'm trying to point out that you can't expect even an amazing programmer with decades of experience to understand what the hell you were trying to do with your code -- in a reasonable amount of time. Styles and goals can be as different as night and day. I believe I'm a ve…

Well...we see things differently. I won't go into it. I've made a commitment to behave circumspectly in my online interactions. Take note that I link to my complete background in my HN handle. I am deliberately putting myself in the position of being held accountable for what I post. I can't please everybody, and, in today's culture, everyone seems to be looking to pounce on everyone else. Rather sad. I can't fix the…

I have a lot of art background as well, and you are speaking my language. So I don't know exactly what we're not agreeing on or why...

I'm not saying ignore people's portfolio. I'm only saying I don't spend a lot of time doing it before I talk to them. You also understand as well as I do that code portfolios and art portfolios are very different things, we can't compare those two types of interviews directly. It's easy to get a sense of quality from an art portfolio very, very quickly. At the same time, it can take days to understand whether a code portfolio has high quality.

You, as someone who'd done a lot of hiring, I think understands that a hiring manager doesn't have 4 hours to research each and every candidate at the resume phase before interviewing them on the phone, while also trying to write code and manage other coders at the same time. We take the best candidates we get, rank the resumes, look over the portfolios, reject any candidates that aren't prepared for the job, then call the top candidates and chat on the phone for a few hours, after that bring in the top from that set for interviews, which can be multiple days.

I also take hiring extremely seriously, and I've never had to fire someone, because we spend a lot of time talking with the candidate and making certain they'll fit in well on the team. That time spent talking is spent talking about their portfolio, having the candidate explain in their own words why they made the design decisions they made, why they chose to work on certain projects.

I would be willing to bet that in a face to face conversation, we would be agreeing damn near 100% on hiring philosophy and process. The problem here is it's hard to get across my motivation online in text. :P

Re: Follow-up to “The dystopian world of software engineering interviews”

#519
post #518

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well...we see things differently. I won't go into it. I've made a commitment to behave circumspectly in my online interactions. Take note that I link to my complete background in my HN handle. I am deliberately putting myself in the position of being held accountable for what I post. I can't please everybody, and, in today's culture, everyone seems to be looking to pounce on everyone else. Rather sad. I can't fix the…

I have a lot of art background as well, and you are speaking my language. So I don't know exactly what we're not agreeing on or why... I'm not saying ignore people's portfolio. I'm only saying I don't spend a lot of time doing it before I talk to them. You also understand as well as I do that code portfolios and art portfolios are very different things, we can't compare those two types of interviews directly. It's ea…

I'm cool with that. I understand that online communication is a rather delicate art. I tend to come across as stuffy and pedantic, because I have found it's the best (not foolproof, though) way to avoid irritating folks.

My writing tends to be a lot more casual, and even a bit humorous. I like humans, and believe that the human relationships we make are the most important artifacts of our lives.

Re: Follow-up to “The dystopian world of software engineering interviews”

#520
post #508

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The right of political association is different from nondiscrimination. Are you suggesting it would be illegal for me to kick a nazi out of my store because they are being a nazi? Because that's the right we're talking about, my right to discriminate against you. It appears that you're conflating government nondiscrimination with government mandates on individual nondiscrimination. Those aren't equivalent.

> it would be illegal for me to kick a nazi out of my store because they are being a nazi Here in Sweden, yes. The law is very clear that you can not deny service because you disagree with someones political, religious, or world views. Government nondiscrimination is a US technicality of the first amendment. European Convention on Human Rights is not limiting to government behavior. Everyone has to follow it.

Then Sweden has a unique interpretation of the ECHR. In most EU nations, that isn't the case (nor does it seem to actually be the case in Sweden, given that Sweden's anti discrimination law doesn't protect arbitrary views).

I think you should speak with a lawyer, because you're not correct.

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