Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums • Hacker News Board

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#511

Post by gvjddbnvdrbv » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 9:10 PM UTC

sgt wrote: post #77

dragonwriter wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> After all, there are certain things like breastfeeding Mother's can and do express milk to be fed to babies in bottles; the fact that a baby is on breastmilk doesn't require the mother to be with them 24/7, and formula is a thing that exists. What other things are there?

I would assume that there is some kind of maternal bond, so that it would be best for the mother to primarily be exposed to the newborn at least in the first 6-12 months. I doubt sucking on a plastic bottle would assist with the maternal bond. What do you think?

Funny when you are on paternity leave and the with your baby 24seven you develop a similar bond. Oh and babies love bottles nearly as much as breasts. (I think breastfeeding is really important in the first few months important and mine was 100% breastfed until 5 months but towards the end of the first year the benefits in a country with clean drinking water are minimal.)

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

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Post by mrlala » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 9:13 PM UTC

ivanhoe wrote: post #494

petercooper wrote: post #240

I'm a dad (of three) and I am not convinced that time spent at the very start of their lives is as significant as that later in their lives (note the "as", I am not saying it has no value!) when you can really nurture their passions, knowledge, etc. I did spend a lot of time with my children in their earliest days because it was the right thing to do, but I don't feel either they or I particularly gained from it (tha…

It might not be significant to a baby, but it surely is significant for the mother (presuming dad helps her, and not just sits around the house), and less stressed-out mothers are in turn good for babies and the family in general.

This all the way.

I mean, I also think it's significant for the baby & dad. But even ignoring that.. holy shit does the mother need support.

Maybe some moms don't, maybe they happen to have an easy baby.. have parents closeby to easily help.

But other mothers have a terribly difficult time, post-natal depression.. you name it. Having the dad around for support means everything during that time- I can speak from experience.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

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Post by lopmotr » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 9:13 PM UTC

rtkwe wrote: post #266

kaybe wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And it usually ends with the mother taking 12 and the dad taking 2, and these 2 being spent on a longer vacation somewhere. There are many reasons, it seems to me that external circumstances are shaping a lot of them.

Yeah that's a pattern you see in most places with any kind of shared pool. The father takes a small, frequently the legal minimum time, and the mother takes the rest. Ultimately it kind of makes the most sense because it is the woman that's gone through the most work of giving birth and is a natural food source for the kid but it does perpetuate the issue of women's careers being set back by having a kid.

When they have that much freedom, can you really call it "perpetuating the issue" instead of "doing what they want"? It's not an issue for the women who prefer to do it, or they wouldn't be doing it.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

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Post by [deleted] » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 9:20 PM UTC

systemtest wrote: post #461

jredwards wrote: post #312

In the tech worker's paradise that is California, I'm preparing for my generous two weeks of paternity leave. My co-worker, having not been employed at the company for a year yet, is preparing to burn all four days of his vacation time because he's not entitled to paternity leave yet. This is broken.

As a tech worker in California, your income is triple to that of a Finnish tech worker. You can easily take unpaid time off for your paternity leave, perhaps even quit your job for a year, and still get out ahead.

[deleted]

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

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Post by JackFr » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 9:20 PM UTC

crispyporkbites wrote: post #452

JackFr wrote: post #384

Where does the money come from? I'm an American and so I'm less familiar with other countries policies. I get that mandating a very generous family leave policy is wonderful for parents and good for society. To me it seems it's gotta be tough for small business owners though. A business of lets say 8 employees simply cannot afford a paid six month leave without it impacting its performance. How is that handled in tho…

> A business of lets say 8 employees simply cannot afford a paid six month leave without it impacting its performance. If all it’s competitors have to, what’s the difference? If you’re really concerned make an exemption for small businesses that allows them to claim the costs back from the government. Edge cases like this are irrelevant, most Americans are employed by enormous companies that can most definitely affor…

> If all it’s competitors have to, what’s the difference?

Because it tips the scale in favor of large companies vs. small. Small firm cashflow is lumpy, large firm cashflow is smooth, and payrolls need to be met.

> Edge cases like this are irrelevant,

17% percent of the work force is employed by firms with fewer than 20 employees, 27% by firms with 50 or fewer.

https://www.bls.gov/web/cewbd/table_f.txt

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#516

Post by jredwards » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 9:21 PM UTC

systemtest wrote: post #461

jredwards wrote: post #312

In the tech worker's paradise that is California, I'm preparing for my generous two weeks of paternity leave. My co-worker, having not been employed at the company for a year yet, is preparing to burn all four days of his vacation time because he's not entitled to paternity leave yet. This is broken.

As a tech worker in California, your income is triple to that of a Finnish tech worker. You can easily take unpaid time off for your paternity leave, perhaps even quit your job for a year, and still get out ahead.

Tech isn't a carve-out where there are fewer protections from the state. I pointed out that I was a tech worker in California because we normally get better protections than most Americans. In this case, even for the well-protected California tech workers, there are few legal protections, if any. For other Americans it will be just as bad.

If you've been with your company for less than a year, you are legally entitled to zero days of paternity leave and if you take unpaid time off, your job is not protected.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#517

Post by decebalus1 » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 9:23 PM UTC

systemtest wrote: post #461

jredwards wrote: post #312

In the tech worker's paradise that is California, I'm preparing for my generous two weeks of paternity leave. My co-worker, having not been employed at the company for a year yet, is preparing to burn all four days of his vacation time because he's not entitled to paternity leave yet. This is broken.

As a tech worker in California, your income is triple to that of a Finnish tech worker. You can easily take unpaid time off for your paternity leave, perhaps even quit your job for a year, and still get out ahead.

> perhaps even quit your job for a year, and still get out ahead.

exactly! Single payer universal health insurance will also take care of the numerous doctor's visits that follow. Oh wait...

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#518

Post by nisuni » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 9:23 PM UTC

gambiting wrote: post #503

nisuni wrote: post #482

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Money is limited and the government decides how to distribute it. The difference between spending it on B and taking it away from A is, to me, absolutely unsubstantial.

By that logic, by giving the money to you, the government is taking it away from starving children. It simply doesn't work this way.

That’s quite a stretch. And it shows how limited your comprehension of the topic is.

Clearly, the money that goes to starving children comes from a different Department, and they are on different budgets. You just cannot move money like that.

And I still think that rather than giving a silly paternal leave, a longer maternal leave would be much more desirable.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

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Post by neonate » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 9:33 PM UTC

the_af wrote: post #495

neonate wrote: post #454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Child bearing is only an initial factor; after the baby is out it goes away. The effects of spending 9 months in the body of the mother never go away. No more profound experience is imaginable. Nothing else that happens to a human being will ever come close. So, vitally important as fathers are, the asymmetry is fundamental and permanent. (I'm talking about the typical developmental experience here; I know there ar…

This seems to be equivocating the issue. Yes, pregnancy is a unique experience. For some women it goes away magically after birth; others have lasting physical and mental changes. Whether this is the most profound experience imaginable in human existence is arguable, though I'm inclined to think it's pretty powerful. However, the "asymmetry" of pregnancy and child birth is neither fundamental nor permanent for the is…

I'm talking about the experience for the baby, and what this means for bonding with mother vs. father. It's not symmetrical or interchangeable. It can't be. Of course that doesn't mean that fathers shouldn't raise children or anything like that.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#520

Post by scrollbar » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 9:40 PM UTC

lacker wrote: post #465

scrollbar wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to downplay the importance of your fathering and nurturing your child's passions at all- My understanding of the research around personality development is that something like 80% (BS statistic I know) of the personality is formed in the first 5 years of development. The early few years are when we get conditioned with the core emotional programming: "I am safe" vs. "I am at risk" - "I am lovable" vs. "I am unlov…

80% of the personality is formed in the first 5 years of development. There's just a huge difference between a 3-month-old baby, who can't recognize faces yet and spends most of the day sleeping and eating, and a 3-year-old child who is running, jumping, telling stories, making friends, and learning to read. For a 3-month-old baby, I doubt that parents do much more than a random babysitter. For a 3-year-old child, th…

My understanding is that the baby, equipped with only instincts / biological hardware, is hyper-aware of the raw emotional communication of their caregiver.

It's this really raw, basic emotional experience which shapes our "core" understanding of ourselves and the world we live in.

"Healthy" attachment in this early stage comes from the caregiver being able to regulate the emotions of the baby. If the baby doesn't feel connected to the caregiver - such as if when the baby cries they don't receiving loving reassurance of their safety - then they form a dysfunctional template for social attachments and poor emotional regulation ability.

If the random babysitter has consistent and parent-like loving connection with the baby then maybe you're right, but I doubt that's the case.