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Gitlab considers not hiring SREs and Support Engineers in China and Russia

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Re: Gitlab considers not hiring SREs and Support Engineers in China and Russia

#511

Post by Iv »

ComodoHacker wrote: post #139
Iv wrote: post #58

Ok, that discussion made it clearer for me, and I am kind of behind @cciresi at that point: https://gitlab.com/gitlab-com/www-gitlab-com/issues/5555#not... They have a customer that required the personal data they'll give to Gitlab not be handled by people living in Russia and China. Could be a group doing humanitarian or journalistic work. That's actually an interesting conundrum: you want to hire a company, need to…

>Could be a group doing humanitarian or journalistic work They speak about revenue, so I'm sure that's not the case. I bet it's a commercial company with sensitive data, probably gov/mil contractor with strict obligations to their customer. And someone at their management doesn't understand Intelligence 101: they don't reach for your data from the country of origin.

Journalists and humanitarian organizations do have revenues.

I doubt a mil contractor would add Russia and China but not embargoed places like Iran.

And yes, I think this is a misguided attempt at security. Companies that handled crucial data that need to stay private really should spend the resources on managing these data themselves.

Re: Gitlab considers not hiring SREs and Support Engineers in China and Russia

#512

Post by [deleted] »

ameshkov wrote: post #226

If I was a Chinese or a Russian engineer working for Gitlab, I'd consider quitting right now regardless of how this discussion ends. I am surprised that this initiative is not just considered by them, but basically approved by some of the senior staff: > In e-group on Monday October 15, 2019 we took the decision to enable a "job family country-of-residence block" for team members who have access to customer data. I d…

[deleted]

Re: Gitlab considers not hiring SREs and Support Engineers in China and Russia

#513

Post by DiogenesKynikos »

elefanten wrote: post #508
DiogenesKynikos wrote: post #495

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not actually true. Taiwan agrees with China, because China's claims are simply those that successive Chinese governments held throughout the 20th Century. The United States used to agree with China - that is, until China went from being the ROC to the PRC. As for what China is actively doing to assert these claims, I suggest you look at a map of which countries occupy which islands in the South China Sea. The…

Self-interested motivations (TW) or transitory diplomatic policies aside, I mean that it is plainly a bullshit claim. "We're big and we want it really bad" is not a justifiable standard of resolving resource and territory disputes. Let's compare island occupation to island-building, island militarization and bullying tactics with vessels. Whatever combination of ways different parties are jostling over trying to de f…

> island militarization and bullying tactics with vessels

Like sailing warships or flying military aircraft next to islands that a foreign country claims as its own? US military actions is the South China Sea could be viewed as highly provocative. I can see why China would respond by putting anti-aircraft batteries on the islands.

> Self-interested motivations (TW)

Everyone's motivations are self-interested. Virtually all countries bordering the South China Sea stake wide-ranging claims.

> "We're big and we want it really bad" is not a justifiable standard of resolving resource and territory disputes.

Of course, that's not how China makes its case. It claims that the islands have belonged to China for hundreds of years, and points to various old maps, historical use by Chinese fishermen, mentions in various treaties, and so on. I don't know how strong these claims are, but I try not to get worked up about tiny uninhabited islands. I mostly hope that the situation doesn't escalate, but many sides are capable of escalation - the US, China, the Philippines, Vietnam, and others.

> a pretty thorny root of the problem is one actor trying to claim all the marbles.

Two actors "claim all the marbles" (the ROC and PRC), Vietnam and the Philippines each claim 80% of the marbles, and Malaysia claims 30% of the marbles.

My original question was why any of this is relevant. If we're going to be raising random accusations against various governments, I can think of much more serious issues than some uninhabited islands and rocks, like the illegal invasion of Iraq or the overthrow of the Libyan government.

Re: Gitlab considers not hiring SREs and Support Engineers in China and Russia

#514

Post by DiogenesKynikos »

GenericsMotors wrote: post #506
DiogenesKynikos wrote: post #505

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're really getting into the realm of fantastical scenarios now. The idea that the Chinese government would kidnap the family of a US-based employee in order to force them to hand over data is completely hypothetical, and to my knowledge not backed up by any known case. If they're willing to go to those lengths, they could just as easily blackmail or bribe any random employee. They surely have the power to do so, as…

That you find this scenario so fantastical is naive...and yes, the Chinese government openly threatening its own citizens abroad is documented. What do you think of the following article, is it cause for concern for you, or do you believe it's just our media misrepresenting China? https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/oct/17/think-of-your-... They also have no problem black-bagging non-compliant citizens, no matter…

Threatening the families of separatist activists is definitely wrong and despicable, but it's very different from what we're discussing here. I haven't heard of any cases similar to the type of scenario you're suggesting.

Re: Gitlab considers not hiring SREs and Support Engineers in China and Russia

#515

Post by DiogenesKynikos »

drak0n1c wrote: post #507
DiogenesKynikos wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They make it hell for U.S companies to do business there. That's not evidenced by the massive presence of US companies in China. American companies do vastly more business in China than vice versa. Whenever I see these sorts of claims, I ask what specific restrictions or hurdles are being discussed.

I tried to buy my $2.50 Old Spice deodorant in Shanghai. The price tag when translated to dollars was over $8. If you are ever in China, go into a grocery store and look at the aisles. The main reason why American products are priced at 200%-300% the competition is because of tariffs. Tariffs designed to make ordinary middle class American products only affordable by rich elites. It's a very effective cap on market s…

I have no idea why Old Spice is expensive in Shanghai, but 200-300% tariffs are not the norm in China. The mean tariff is under 4%, according to the World Bank. I have noticed, however, that many people in China people hold foreign brands in high regard, and are willing to pay a premium for them.

1. https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/TM.TAX.MRCH.WM.AR.ZS?lo...

Re: Gitlab considers not hiring SREs and Support Engineers in China and Russia

#516

Post by GenericsMotors »

DiogenesKynikos wrote: post #514
GenericsMotors wrote: post #506

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That you find this scenario so fantastical is naive...and yes, the Chinese government openly threatening its own citizens abroad is documented. What do you think of the following article, is it cause for concern for you, or do you believe it's just our media misrepresenting China? https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/oct/17/think-of-your-... They also have no problem black-bagging non-compliant citizens, no matter…

Threatening the families of separatist activists is definitely wrong and despicable, but it's very different from what we're discussing here. I haven't heard of any cases similar to the type of scenario you're suggesting.

I can't see how you think there's absolutely no connection here. The Chinese government has demonstrated very clearly it will coerce their citizens' compliance - they're not going to be immune to this just by not being activists.

If you have something they want - or are able to do something they want - it's quite obvious they will use your family as leverage.

Re: Gitlab considers not hiring SREs and Support Engineers in China and Russia

#517

Post by Terr_ »

IMO this is not really about hiring, the hiring aspect is just a temporary workaround for a broader policy/technical challenge.

Namely, how to maintain your overall organization and software-stack while internally isolating data-flows and rules which are unique to different jurisdictions.

Even if today it's some potential client expressing general concern, tomorrow it might be something you can't simply ignore, like an EU privacy law that must be complied with to avoid dropping a bunch of customers. (Or a demand by Elbonian officials for an account that lets their secret police snoop on Elbonian business, but hopefully that one would be resisted.)

Re: Gitlab considers not hiring SREs and Support Engineers in China and Russia

#518

Post by DiogenesKynikos »

GenericsMotors wrote: post #516
DiogenesKynikos wrote: post #514

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Threatening the families of separatist activists is definitely wrong and despicable, but it's very different from what we're discussing here. I haven't heard of any cases similar to the type of scenario you're suggesting.

I can't see how you think there's absolutely no connection here. The Chinese government has demonstrated very clearly it will coerce their citizens' compliance - they're not going to be immune to this just by not being activists. If you have something they want - or are able to do something they want - it's quite obvious they will use your family as leverage.

That hasn't been demonstrated. You're citing the treatment of Chinese people abroad who are affiliated with CIA-funded separatist organizations and drawing conclusions about how random people working for tech companies will be treated. I don't think these situations are analogous.

Re: Gitlab considers not hiring SREs and Support Engineers in China and Russia

#519

Post by user5994461 »

dlgeek wrote: post #446
tgsovlerkhgsel wrote: post #19

I'm shocked (in a positive way) about the amount of transparency Gitlab provides. Even as a reader, it almost feels as if someone misconfigured the ACLs or I'm reading leaked internal documents, not an intentional decision to make this open. Some of the discussions seem highly sensitive, and yet it seems to work for them. Thank you, Gitlab, for being so open! I've learned a lot about compliance from just reading this…

I'm shocked that they'd extend it to their lawyers. This thread (and the one the other day about telemetry and the GDPR) are a plaintiff and/or prosecutor's dream. One of the hardest parts of most white collar prosecutions is proving that an action was taken "knowingly and willfully". Unlike other areas of criminal law, most white collar offenses require prosecutors to prove that not only did the person know they wer…

On the other hand, the discussion threads actually show that they have no idea what they are doing.

It's a good question what one could prosecute out of that and what to gain. There are so many open angles and I don't think there is any precedent with a fully opened company.

Re: Gitlab considers not hiring SREs and Support Engineers in China and Russia

#520

Post by [deleted] »

d1ffuz0r wrote: post #181
jplayer01 wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, give any quote from the link or elsewhere that in any way shows the reasoning for this consideration is based on how much they don’t like Chinese people or how inferior they are as a race. People keep throwing around the racist label even when it’s absolutely clear that it’s not about race. It’s about the Chinese and Russian governments and how they operate. These are legitimate informational/operational security…

>It’s about the Chinese and Russian governments and how they operate Have you ever thought that Russian government consists of Russian people? Same with Chinese

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