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“We have no reason to believe 5G is safe”

blogs.scientificamerican.com

511–520 of 613 posts

Re: “We have no reason to believe 5G is safe”

#511

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Should that absolve them of writing deceptive articles that feed in to a type of paranoia that is fairly harmful to society[0]? [0]: Not that the anti-wireless people are particularly influential right now, but they're fairly close to antivacciene people in how they perceive the world with an almost complete absence of rational thought.

Well, first, I was responding to OP's complaint that the article "supports the author's point of view and offering no opposing points of view. This is not journalism." by pointing out that, in fact, it's not journalism, it's opinion. Second, the whole reason articles like this get published and read is that, in this case, one man's "alarmism" or "deception" or "paranoia" is another man's sober scientific caution. It'…

>Well, first, I was responding to OP's complaint that the article "supports the author's point of view and offering no opposing points of view. This is not journalism." by pointing out that, in fact, it's not journalism, it's opinion.

I understand the distinction, but posting dubious opinion articles on news sites is still problematic. The Scientific American does not host articles espousing racist ideologies / vehemently blatant pseudoscience, by publishing this it is a form of tacit endorsement (despite it going in their opinion section).

>Second, the whole reason articles like this get published and read is that, in this case, one man's "alarmism" or "deception" or "paranoia" is another man's sober scientific caution. It's the same problem with GMOs. People are rushing to market with unproven technology to make money while insisting it's all perfectly safe.

The problem is that both the antiEMF and antiVaccine people are in fact not applying scientific principles to the issue. Cherry picking studies and opinions that support a given viewpoint is at best a rhetorical argument from authority, it is absolutely not a scientific approach to verifying a hypothesis.

>Why not wait a century, do more research, and decide then? What's the urgency to roll it out now?

The urgency comes in part from the fact that the 4G network is congested and at capacity in dense urban areas, and also from political dealings between US and Chinese telecom companies.

Re: “We have no reason to believe 5G is safe”

#512

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correlation is not causation. It could also be as simple as the light or vibrations from your phone at night disrupting your sleep. I've found blinking lights can make my sleep worse.

It's wifi too. I sleep with a mask and ear plugs. The very best sleep I get is with complete emf shielded and grounded clothing. The nights I don't do this are significantly worse. I'm tempted to get a sleep tracker but most are bluetooth. I've even tuned my router so it does less frequent heartbeats. If I ever build a house again I'd spend the money on shielding it entirely.

It's not wifi. There's literally no way for you to detect it and there are other, stronger radio signals constantly bombarding you.

Re: “We have no reason to believe 5G is safe”

#513
post #478

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please give a link, I want to read it without going through these that aren't that interesting.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8717316

See this review (which includes your study) for a counterpoint: https://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/doi/full/10.1289/ehp.7306

Re: “We have no reason to believe 5G is safe”

#514
post #280
post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You conflated ionising and non-ionising radiation (flying/banana/chest x-ray vs. radio waves, wifi, light from lightbulbs). Just so you know. Your point still stands though, although i would say we're bathed in more intense radiation than 5G and have been bathing in it for millenias - sunlight is radiation as well! Better live underground, i guess. Oh, oh, but what about skin cancer you say? That's caused by sunlight…

Other points: while excessive radiation is bad, below a certain point it is not harmful, and in fact is beneficial. There's some good reading here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_no-threshold_model Most scientists today would say that below a threshold, there is no negative effect to radiation (or rather, you can't predict the effect in a stochastic way as a function of dose) and also that within certain regime…

This effect is called hormesis - _some_ stress can be beneficial to health.

Re: “We have no reason to believe 5G is safe”

#515

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8717316

See this review (which includes your study) for a counterpoint: https://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/doi/full/10.1289/ehp.7306

This is not at all a counterpoint. This review basically says "We need more data" and says the reason not to draw conclusions yet is that we don't even know how much exposure we experience in daily life.

Re: “We have no reason to believe 5G is safe”

#516
post #504

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8717316

it's a single paper by a single author (itself a proxy measure of low quality) about a single population (military), based on indirectly (not-measured) exposures. I don't think you can really conclude anything at all about that paper.

Having read it, the paper itself is much more balanced than how the biased persons (in any direction) would like to talk about it. It ends with (emphasis mine):

"The main results obtained in the present study were a doubled incidence of all neoplasms with a threefold increase of cancers of the alimentary tract and a sixfold increase of malignancies of the haemopoietic system and lymphatic organs in 20- to 59-year-old career military servicemen exposed occupationally to pulse-modulated 150- to 3500- MHz RF/MW radiation. However, this does not prove a causal link between development of neoplastic diseases and direct interaction of EM fields, since retrospective analysis cannot provide convincing evidence for such links. Nevertheless, the high incidence of certain forms of neoplasms in personnel exposed to pulse-modulated RF/MW radiation clearly shows a need for urgent identification of causal factors present in the occupational environment."

Two other quotes from the paper showing author's awareness of what can and what can't be claimed as proven:

"The highest difference in morbidity rate between RF/MW-exposed and non-exposed personnel was found for malignancies of the haemopoietic system and lymphatic organs (Table 2) with the odds ratio exceeding 6 and the incidence of above 40 new cases per 100000 of exposed subjects annually.

Neoplasms of the haemopoietic system and lymphatic organs are among the malignancies that are to a considerable degree related to multiple environmental and occupational factors, including ionising radiation, organic solvents, some synthetic stains, resins, higher alcohols and numerous other substances [l]. Therefore, many industrial occupations, including e.g. aluminium production, petroleum refining, painting, mining, driving and car servicing, are considered to increase the risk of development of leukaemias and lymphomas. Electric and electronic industry workers have also considerable possibilities for exposure to potential leukaemiogenic factors and substances during their routine or additional duties. This may strongly influence and bias the morbidity rates of haemopoietic and lymphatic malignancies occurring in these populations and their relation to EM fields."

Also some technical details are provided:

"Although assessment of the individual exposure levels (‘dose’) was not possible, it is known from measurement of field power density at working posts that about 80% of the investigated personnel were exposed to RF/MW fields of 0.1-2 W/cm2 and 15% to mean power densities of 2-6 W/m2"

and earlier, showing that the cm2 above is a typo:

"Evaluation of the exposure intensities revealed that at 80-85% of posts, the fields (mostly pulse-modulated RF/MWs at 150-3500 MHz) do not exceed 2 W/m2 (0.2 mW/cm2), while the others have intensities 2-6 W/m2"

It seems that those were the people being exposed to the radar beams during their work hours (or maybe even outside of these). We should for the start compare that amount of exposure to that of humans in the cities due to the cell phones to know which orders of magnitude is the difference.

Re: “We have no reason to believe 5G is safe”

#517

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Shouldn't smoke follow the inverse square law as well (in the absence of air currents)? That's why smoking is allowed outdoors.

(Except when it's not.) It's not really uncommon to see "no smoking on the patio" or "no smoking within 100 feet of this door" signs. And some states have legalized smoking cannabis, except outdoors.

Patios are usually very close to doors. Is the threshold really 100 feet in some places?

Re: “We have no reason to believe 5G is safe”

#518
post #489

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are looking at cancer deaths, which indeed have gone down from better treatments and better screening. This does not imply less incidence of cancer.

I think you just answered your own question. As detection improves, so will the rates at which cancer is detected.

AFAIK, Better detection means earlier detection and may not lead to a decrease in cancers that are never detected.

Re: “We have no reason to believe 5G is safe”

#519
post #498
post #491

This thread would be much shorter if someone had read this: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26151230

and also this: https://www.nature.com/articles/srep14914

Your first link was paywalled so I couldn't read it, but the potential issues with meta-analysis papers has been discussed to death already.

The article you linked second, is interesting. He makes some bad claims (The electric fields produced by muscles are strongly polarized contrary to his claim that they are unpolarized) and there is some questionable math, but what I really want to highlight is how he uses the pulse repetition interval in his section on forced oscillation. By his own math, a CW signal at mm-wave frequencies produces no biological effect being to low of intensity. The formula given is proportional to 1/(2pif) so it follows, but he then uses the PRF to set the frequency and displacement and finds that at these low frequencies, the effect is strong enough to be dangerous.

The problem with this though, is that the PRF is how often you activate the transmitter and not the frequency of the transmitted RF signal which leaves us with the perverse conclusion that, mm-wave is fine under normal circumstances but becomes more dangerous the less you are exposed to it.

Re: “We have no reason to believe 5G is safe”

#520

I'm amazed at how many people here actually decline to click on the links in the article, which would guide one to a large list of scientific publications, with links to the original publications themselves. Yet they are very ready to call "more than 240 scientists who have published peer-reviewed research on the biologic and health effects of nonionizing electromagnetic fields" "wackos" or "cranks with a PhD", call…

>At the same time, everybody seems to accept that the chance of getting cancer in your lifetime has risen to about one in three for men and one in five for women.

Annual invasive cancer incidence rates have been declining in the U.S. for over two decades.

https://seer.cancer.gov/statfacts/html/all.html

Also, the lifetime risk of incidence is about 40% for both men and women:

https://seer.cancer.gov/csr/1975_2016/browse_csr.php?section...

https://seer.cancer.gov/csr/1975_2016/browse_csr.php?section...

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