We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage • Hacker News Board

Re: We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage

#511

Post by swoongoonz » Sun, Apr 21, 2019, 12:42 AM UTC

j79 wrote: post #455

After moving to California in 2011, I decided I missed the office banter and started looking for a job. I found a listing on a large, tech-based recruiting firm (cybercoders) and the job was perfect for my skills. I applied but heard nothing back. After a week I reached out to the recruiter, and she replied with a curt, "You're not qualified for this role so we're looking elsewhere." I was a bit surprised as the reqs…

I had so many similar experiences. People writing me off right after the recession and then work picked back up around 2013. Got tons of offers and job opportunities only to have the same previous recruiters pinging me. "yeah, no thanks, got a job already".

Re: We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage

#512

Post by tyingq » Sun, Apr 21, 2019, 12:45 AM UTC

chronogram wrote: post #464

sidlls wrote: post #426

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These are not normal base salaries even for senior programmers in the bay area. The 60th percentile for senior software engineers is around $180k per year in the Bay Area. Total compensation is commonly $200k or more, easily, but not base. Outside of the Bay Area, even in NY, Chicago, etc., base salaries are lower. In most places they're much lower--below $100k.

Those are not nett salaries are they? So keep in mind in Europe it can be 5k times 2 times 12=120k. (How to use asterisks here?)

"How to use asterisks here?"

There is a Unicode small asterisk: ﹡

And some other variations: ∗ ＊

Re: We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage

#513

Post by StevePerkins » Sun, Apr 21, 2019, 12:46 AM UTC

TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #329

dangero wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I want to give a slightly different perspective on this as a cofounder of a startup. First of all it sounds like there was some really dishonest communication and there is no excuse for that. As far as salary goes, I absolutely cannot afford to compete and hire at market rate prices so I rely on: -People who are motivated by other factors than money (everyone at our company took a pay cut to join). We have schedule f…

How do you reconcile this statement: First of all it sounds like there was some really dishonest communication and there is no excuse for that. With this one: People who are unaware of their market value

I think there's a big difference between floating a number like "2X" to entice someone into an interview, then presenting an offer for "X"... versus just floating "X" in the first place, and maybe someone is too timid or unaware to ask for more.

Honestly, we're not SKU's. Once you get some experience, the main difference between, say, a $100k developer and a $150k developer is that the latter simply decides that's their price and interviews longer until they find it.

Re: We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage

#514

Post by oska » Sun, Apr 21, 2019, 12:46 AM UTC

edoceo wrote: post #445

bufferoverflow wrote: post #407

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does it? I see a large concentration of red dots over Poland, and some over Belgium-France border, all due to coal plants. Then there's UK. Poland takes second place with an overall score of 5.5/10. The carbon dioxide emissions in poland are 7.63 tonnes per capita per year, which is higher than the winner Turkey. The concentrations of PM2.5 are 22 µg/m3 which is almost half of Turkey’s concentrations. There are 69 de…

Yes. From your own quote: Poland, second place (over all) World Atlas has them at #3 https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/cities-with-the-worst-ai... So...not "dirtiest"

As a third party, I appreciate the links you've provided but you're being pedantic about Poland having to be strictly 'the dirtiest'.

Re: We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage

#515

Post by x0x0 » Sun, Apr 21, 2019, 12:46 AM UTC

areyouseriousxx wrote: post #43

burtonator wrote: post #5

I had a recruiter call me a year ago with what sounded like a really amazing offer. Working for a well funded startup on a problem in which I happen to be a domain expert. They're aren't many expects in my field with my background and skill set and they said the right things to get me to interview (compensation won't be a concern). Anyway... Went in for 4-5 interviews. Took me about 10 hours in total to interview wit…

I find it strange, as software developers, that we discuss the effects on automation all the time, but no one seems to understand that automation has made searching for new employees incredibly inexpensive and efficient compared to the past. So in technical roles there are a lot of companies that are always hiring. Recruiters work for free until they find you someone and placing job listings online is so inexpensive…

Searching for new employees is incredibly inexpensive == I now know you don't do any interviewing or hiring.

Eg when we post a senior eng job on eg glassdoor, stackoverflow, or linkedin, we are deluged with resumes. Just the ad easily costs $250. Then we get applications who ignore that we don't sponsor visas, clearly don't have the skills required (6 year SAP programmer who wants to be a senior fullstack eng? No thanks), or are junior eng trying to make a huge jump. 1.5 years experience does not make you a senior SE who can be trusted to design and land large features with minimal oversight.

The first problem is an eng manager reviews all those resumes. It easily requires 10 minutes per, including writing nice rejection letters. And that's just for inbound. Outbound can take 30+ minutes per.

If someone passes the resume filter, we do a phone screen with one of our senior eng shadowed by a junior. A 45 minute call plus prep plus decision afterwards costs me 2 hours of eng time.

If you come in, we do about a 3.5 hour interview across 6 people. We cover travel expenses and lunch if an interview runs over lunchtime.

The whole thing easy costs us $1.5k, plus tons of eng time. And that's if we source. If a recruiter sources, we're looking at 20%.

Re: We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage

#516

Post by tomrod » Sun, Apr 21, 2019, 12:49 AM UTC

bob33212 wrote: post #435

lgleason wrote: post #265

It does not surprise me that this is out of Atlanta. One of the former Atlanta Business Chronicle writers that covered tech rightfully calls it the Bangalore of the South. https://twitter.com/Urvaksh/status/1092948535627137024 https://twitter.com/Urvaksh/status/893087188451196928 Tech in ATL is a second class citizen and the salaries reflect that, plus there is a glut of marketing and business people. The other issue…

There is a good pool of talent in ATL and the cost of living is low compared to SF. Kabbage, Cardlytics, and a couple others operate a model of high turnover and low pay. It costs more than the mythical man month method overall, but the output of the product group is more predicable and there is less risk of a small group of 10x engineers leaving and gutting the product team.

> Kabbage, Cardlytics

Is there a name-and-shame list of these kinds of companies some where?

Re: We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage

#517

Post by wolco » Sun, Apr 21, 2019, 12:49 AM UTC

ddingus wrote: post #361

wolco wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should you get a say in who works with you? As a team lead I'm trying to find the right balance. If we hire only people the current devs like we endup having too many similiar developers with the same mindset and shortcomings. Trying to have a more diverse, balanced team means you don't get a say.

Actually, doing that means everyone getting a balanced say. Two way street. If you make it one way, it is all on you, and when that team says that, you get all the credit. Good or bad, and the team knows it. Will definitely throw you under a bus, given cause. If you make it a balanced discussion, everyone taking shared ownership, then it is on everyone. The difference shows up in two places: One, bad call. The team c…

I've been in both situations and places inbetween.

If the team lead owns it they should take the blame and give credit to the team. If the team kind of owns it then everyone is off the hook or on. It also invites the owner/vp to talk directly with the programmers which undermines the lead.

No one mentions this but the lead in development is one of the rockier jobs. You rarely have power to hire/fire without a manager, all development problems come your way, credit goes to developers. You have very little power compared to other industries.

Re: We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage

#518

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Apr 21, 2019, 12:49 AM UTC

cardine wrote: post #454

toomuchtodo wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why is it your choice to make? It's not my choice. It's the technology industry's collective choice to decide how welcoming the technology industry is to newcomers. I hope you have a more compelling argument than, "It's not fair." Life ain't fair; people have mortgage payments to make, kids to feed, and aren't likely to be willing to support emotional appeals that are going to decrease their quality of life, withou…

Your argument is "I got mine fuck everyone else" which I think is about as uncompelling as an argument gets. My argument is that getting more people into tech increases opportunities and raises the standards of living for everyone. When entire industries are disappearing due to automation I think it is rather ridiculous to try to restrict people from becoming programmers. You are right, it is not your choice, and tha…

[deleted]

Re: We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage

#519

Post by toasterlovin » Sun, Apr 21, 2019, 12:51 AM UTC

If we don’t have a shortage of talent, then why are people with one set of talents (software developers) making so much more money than people who lack those talents? A talent supply that reflected the needs of the economy would result in a flat distribution of incomes.

Re: We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage

#520

Post by krob » Sun, Apr 21, 2019, 12:51 AM UTC

arcticfox wrote: post #358

rubicon33 wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup. And they're missing the point that this isn't 1985 anymore. A high school student with a week of JavaScript and HTML could write AirBnB. Or at least, JavaScript and similar languages make programming much, much easier (and hence the barrier to entry much easier). As coding difficulty drops, and supply increases, the net effect will be a much higher demand for jobs than supply. And that's exactly where big tech w…

> A high school student with a week of JavaScript and HTML could write AirBnB. Yeah, that could definitely happen. /s

All I can say is LOL.. good luck with that. Maybe if they were Little Man Tate. Knowing where to start, the permutations of frameworks & libraries & algorithmic knowledge & design patterns etc.. That's like the whole.. I know how to build a blog when all you did was click a button on digital ocean to deploy wordpress and now you think you know how to deploy it. Then client says they need it to be on GCE or AWS. Yes you can always use PAAS products, but experience plays a role.