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Facebook to ban white nationalist content

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Re: Facebook to ban white nationalist content

#511

I consider myself a free speech absolutist. Or very nearly so. But that runs both ways. Not only do I think that almost all (to borrow a mathematical term) speech should be permitted, but also that the onus is on the speaker to make themselves heard or to find an audience. No company or platform owes them anything. In earlier times, that meant that no newspaper or printing press was required to print everything sent…

I am no longer a free speech absolutist. And the reason I am not is the sort of abstract, angels-on-a-pinhead bullshit arguments that fill the responses to the parent post. The more it can be abstracted to "free speech", the less oxygen there is for discussion of the real harm caused by white supremacist thought and white supremacist actions.

I put the safety of society at large first. And if you think that's oppressing you, maybe you should ask yourself why.

Re: Facebook to ban white nationalist content

#512

Thought experiment for ya: > Facebook to ban homosexual hookup content How about that, eh? Funny how a simple change of political platform will U-turn your support of so-called 'free speech'!

Presumably people who support this policy wouldn't consider it a bolstering of free speech, whether it's justified or not.

Re: Facebook to ban white nationalist content

#513
post #6

Good to see the Valley is starting to get off its "we are just a platform, all information should be free and neutral no matter how bad, so we're not responsible" extremism of the past few years and understand that some forms of speech are harmful should not ever be encouraged and accelerated on any platform or technology, ever. To the people that say "Where does it end?" – that's pretty easy. Let's start with curbin…

> "Where does it end?" It ends, as it always does (and must) with massive hypocrisy on the part of the arbitrary censor, since "harm" is so poorly defined that it ends up being replaced with "whatever seems fashionable today".

> It ends, as it always does (and must) with massive hypocrisy on the part of the arbitrary censor, since "harm" is so poorly defined that it ends up being replaced with "whatever seems fashionable today".

You are defending literal nazis. Their idea of speech is Christchurch. Deplatforming that is absolutely the correct move.

Re: Facebook to ban white nationalist content

#514
post #186

I don't have a strong opinion on this particular issue, but I don't think your comment gets to the core of it. If Facebook decided to ban all Chinese, Islamic, or African-American content, then the conversation would be completely different. People wouldn't say, "so be it -- go set up your own servers". Obviously they have to make a value judgement, and they have done so here and said as much (which I appreciate). In…

>If Facebook decided to ban all Chinese, Islamic, or African-American content, then the conversation would be completely different. People wouldn't say, "so be it -- go set up your own servers". This is because we have laws about discrimination based on race. White supremacy is not a race. You're free to discriminate against someone due to the views they hold.

But you are not allowed to suppress the speech of people based on the views they hold. The first amendment does indeed protect even racists.

Or at least corporations and the government are not allowed to.

Re: Facebook to ban white nationalist content

#515
post #432

At what point do such things change into a public discourse problem? Do we wait until it can be shown that companies such as Facebook, Twitter, Google, etc. influenced elections because they refused to serve information from a candidate they didn't like? If we aren't already there, it's not long before it is. What do you think would happen if these "private companies" with such deep hooks into our communication infra…

This already happens. "Mainstream Media" doesn't give equal coverage to 3rd party candidates.

Or even DNC candidates, if they're actual progressives: https://decisiondata.org/news/political-media-blackouts-pres...

Re: Facebook to ban white nationalist content

#516
post #6

Good to see the Valley is starting to get off its "we are just a platform, all information should be free and neutral no matter how bad, so we're not responsible" extremism of the past few years and understand that some forms of speech are harmful should not ever be encouraged and accelerated on any platform or technology, ever. To the people that say "Where does it end?" – that's pretty easy. Let's start with curbin…

To the people that say "Where does it end?" – that's pretty easy. Let's start with curbing speech that encourages harming others. Welp, there goes the Declaration of Independence.

...because nazis can't use Facebook to plan the next Christchurch?

I feel like maaaaaybe there's a few steps in between the two.

Re: Facebook to ban white nationalist content

#517

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speech that is about "exterminating nonwhites" is already illegal speech. It is incitement to commit crime. There does not need to be new rules or laws to prevent this speech - there just needs to be enforcement of the existing rules, which is fine, and I think everyone, including most right-wingers will agree that such laws should be enforced, and it is correct that media platforms block posts as soon as they are al…

Please. You are pretending White Supremacy is this totally benign thing because you are ignoring reality in pursuit of egalitarian ideology. You cannot simply ignore context for the sake of argument.

You can take anything out of context and present it as something else to make an argument, and it goes both ways. People can take something totally benign and present it as if it were a white supremacist argument.

It's not hard to imagine this being stretched to limit my speech. I'm white, and I'm also a nationalist - one who believes that nation states are the best means of managing humans who have a shared culture and traditions. How much of a stretch would it be to call me a "white nationalist?" I mean, lexicographically, it is an accurate use of two adjectives which describe me. However, I'm certainly not a "white nationalist" in the sense that might suggest I am in any way a white supremacist.

If white nationalist content is banned, does this mean that I cannot discuss nationalism because I am white - and therefore, a loon can trivially make the link that if I am white, and nationalist, then I must be a white nationalist? Doh!

What about white people who wish to celebrate their cultural heritage, peacefully, by suggesting that they should not have to give up or sacrifice their culture or traditions for fear that they might offend someone. Of course, it doesn't take imagination to think that a loon my consider this to be "white supremacism", because it is already happening!

The idea that there exists some large "exterminate nonwhites" network is a cartoon version of reality. There exist a small number of deranged humans who think that their skin color makes them superior, and an even smaller fraction of them who think that therefore, they must kill people who do not share that skin color. These are not at all representative of whites, nationalists, conservatives or free speech advocates, who are the real targets of recent censorship.

I mean, Alex Jones might be a nutcase, but I've not heard any evidence suggesting he has been calling for exterminating people. He has publicly apologized countless times for his handling of the Sandy Hook case which is the alleged reason he is banned. And Sargon of Akkad is an outspoken critic of white nationalists, but if we take this one word he said out of context then we've got him cornered!

You are the one pretending pal. You are pretending slippery slopes do no exist and that rules and laws only apply to the thing they were originally written to apply to. What utopia has this ever happened in? The only rules which can't be abused are the rules which don't exist in the first place. A rule which is in place is a rule which will be abused. Selective enforcement of rules also exists, and is commonly used to politically censor one side while openly allowing the opposing viewpoint.

Now if there are real cases of incitement to commit any crime against people because of their skin color, or anything else even, then I'm all for enforcement of rules and laws as they should be. This isn't what the censorship and assaults on free speech are about at all.

Re: Facebook to ban white nationalist content

#518
post #322

In the case of facebook. If they removed one side from debating that side will leave. Creating a smaller more similiar group of people. That would go against the goal of connecting the world and change the goal to connecting the left or right. Plenty of those sites. Facebook's ideal strategy is not to get involved.

Except deplatforming is shown to work against alt-right hate speech: https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/bjbp9d/do-social-... Anti-semitic speech has traditionally relied on soap boxes to spread their message, for decades before the internet even existed. That's why most academics won't engage them, because these groups are not interested in genuine discussion but in broadcasting their prejudice.

You're just telling yourself what you want to hear.

Re: Facebook to ban white nationalist content

#519
post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The virality of violence is a bad aspect of network effects. I think we agree online calls for actual violence should not be promoted. What I have a difficulty understanding is how and who will define "violence". Inciting direct violence is one thing, but people like expanding definitions. Is expressing support for one state which wants to overthrow another state "violence"? Is supporting China (in some aspect) but w…

I would say that if the mainstream narrative is that your ideology shows up in a bunch of mass shootings then you get pushback. We thought it made sense to take down ISIS content, now it makes sense to take down white supremacy content. Presumably this wouldn't be happening if not for the dozen or so mass shootings with oddly similar perpetrators in the past 5 years.

There has been more left wing political violence in the US recently, the media simply disproportionately reports on right wing violence.

Why isn’t Facebook banning leftist propaganda when groups like Antifa regularly use it as justification for political violence?

Re: Facebook to ban white nationalist content

#520
post #499

.

[For context, the post above, before all of its content was edited out, called for “enforcing” CDA Section 230 against tech firms by making them liable as publishers for user content]

You aren't calling for 230 to be enforced, you are calling for it to be abolished.

Which is already happening one step at a time (SESTA/FOSTA), each of which radically accelerates self-censorship. Actually, I suspect a lot of the self-censorship that happens that isn't connected to legal changes but is connected to popular mood is to avoid political pressure for new limits on the 230 safe harbor which would force even more drastic self censorship.

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