Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not • Hacker News Board

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#511

Post by bjourne » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 2:16 PM UTC

DiffEq wrote: post #506

noobermin wrote: post #18

It's not like meritocracy is completely unrelated to real life, it matters in a certain regime. However, if like Vanessa, you're born to lesser circumstances, you just cannot escape poverty by just working harder. Similarly, if you are born to very well off standards, even if you're a dope and spend money from Dad's inheritance on cocaine, sure, you won't be successful but you'll still have a net of some kind. You ca…

You can escape poverty by working harder; it is just that working harder will not always work. It needs to be coupled with other virtues; of course the solution is not just simply to work harder, but to suggest that working harder is not a great deal part of the solution is false by every measure. Lets say this, you are born into a poor family - you still get to go to school that likely has a great library - the scho…

> You can escape poverty by working harder; it is just that working harder will not always work.

You can escape poverty by buying lottery tickets too. Obviously it is all about the probabilities. But if you earn $10/hour (what kind of insane unlivable wage is that?) even if you work 16h/day you'll still be poor.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#512

Post by blacksoil » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 2:17 PM UTC

hedvig wrote: post #498

blacksoil wrote: post #141

The lady in the example is 33 has a diabetes, 3 kids to support, and presumably also have to support for her disabled mother. To make the matter even more sad she had no higher level education. I can imagine how hard and tough it is for her. But I don't think raising the minimum wage or a mandated salary increase/promotion is the real solution here. The real solutions would be to: 1. Educate parents on the importance…

Okay but changing the minimum wage would have a real impact in her life now going forward. Does your plan retroactively change her state? Also, there will always be some worse off country to say "look it could be worse, see how lucky you are?" I think that is such a disingenuous and irrelevant point.

What I'm trying to say is that increasing minimum wage is not a sustainable solution. Salary should really be determined by economic rules of supply and demand. While it's true that Government needs to step in here and there to ensure fairness, I don't think Vanessa's case falls into it.

This might sound harsh, but I do think it's better of for her to hand her children over to foster care or something. Having to support 3 kids with such salary is just too much for her. What I was proposing was "how to prevent future Vanessa"

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#513

Post by nkrisc » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 2:18 PM UTC

hhjinks wrote: post #384

cm2012 wrote: post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have no idea the kind of mental state, upbringing and understanding of the world Vanessa had at 16. One of the big reasons teen girls get pregnant is a desperate hope to fill the psychological void in their hearts created by neglectful parents.

That does not absolve her of her irresponsibility. 99% of 16-year-olds realize having a kid is a bad idea. She made her bed, and now she sleeps in it. I can empathize with her situation, but I can not empathize with anyone saying she is not herself at least partly responsible.

How sure are you that 99% of 16 year olds realize having a kid is a bad idea? Citation needed for your 99% claim.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#514

Post by sonnyblarney » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 2:21 PM UTC

m_fayer wrote: post #410

hhjinks wrote: post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That does not absolve her of her irresponsibility. 99% of 16-year-olds realize having a kid is a bad idea. She made her bed, and now she sleeps in it. I can empathize with her situation, but I can not empathize with anyone saying she is not herself at least partly responsible.

A modern wealthy society that allows a bad-but-understandable move by a 16 year old girl to basically wreck her entire life, is a cruel society. Also don't overlook that America is also supposed to be a country of redemption and second chances, and that we as a society derive strength from that. We foster risk-taking, and we don't throw away people who seriously screw up - but rather capitalize on the fact that those…

If she really wants to have a kid, she can have that.

To many people having a family is the #1 thing you know, the 'economics' are in support of that.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#515

Post by blacksoil » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 2:24 PM UTC

zimablue wrote: post #370

blacksoil wrote: post #141

The lady in the example is 33 has a diabetes, 3 kids to support, and presumably also have to support for her disabled mother. To make the matter even more sad she had no higher level education. I can imagine how hard and tough it is for her. But I don't think raising the minimum wage or a mandated salary increase/promotion is the real solution here. The real solutions would be to: 1. Educate parents on the importance…

This is just social darwinist moralising imo. If you're going to really prescribe that as a solution, can you point to cases where "telling poor people not to have kids" has proven effective to improve society? Even if it is effective, it's still sickening to me, the idea that you should only have kids if you either inherit money or you're lucky enough to climb out of poverty. If population control ever becomes neces…

I'm not saying poor people should not have kids. I'm saying having kids is a responsibility. If someone is poor but willing to take on extra miles, say to have double jobs, living very frugally to save for kid's future, etc, sure go ahead. Having a kid is not a privilege, it's a responsibility. Kids deserve comfy home, loving parents, adequate education, etc..

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#516

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 2:25 PM UTC

rascul wrote: post #473

boulos wrote: post #428

A few threads seem to believe that the minimum wage is high enough / need not be increased. I don’t actually want to argue about mechanism, but think that it’s imoortant to note that the math says our (current) minimum wage is demonstrably insufficient to remove poverty. With the Federal minimum wage currently at $7.25/hr, that’s just $15k/year at full-time. That puts many minimum wage workers below many countries’ a…

Interestingly enough, $7.25 would be enough for me to get by just fine where I'm at in Mississippi. I wouldn't have much left over, but it would more than cover my bills, food, and transportation. Not everyone could do it, but based on the numbers and my current expenses, I could. It's also a bit rare to find a job paying that little around here, based on what I saw during my job search in the beginning of the year.…

[deleted]

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#517

Post by yawboakye » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 2:28 PM UTC

noobermin wrote: post #18

It's not like meritocracy is completely unrelated to real life, it matters in a certain regime. However, if like Vanessa, you're born to lesser circumstances, you just cannot escape poverty by just working harder. Similarly, if you are born to very well off standards, even if you're a dope and spend money from Dad's inheritance on cocaine, sure, you won't be successful but you'll still have a net of some kind. You ca…

> However, if like Vanessa, you're born to lesser circumstances, you just cannot escape poverty by just working harder.

Wealth and poverty for both society and the individual a generational. This generation lifts themselves to a height that makes life better for the next generation. One life time isn't enough to measure whether working hard will make you successful.

Being born into a well off standard is being born into generations of sacrifices and hard work. If the current generation doesn't work hard to maintain they will certainly make life harder for a few generations down the line.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#518

Post by yawboakye » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 2:29 PM UTC

bjourne wrote: post #511

DiffEq wrote: post #506

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can escape poverty by working harder; it is just that working harder will not always work. It needs to be coupled with other virtues; of course the solution is not just simply to work harder, but to suggest that working harder is not a great deal part of the solution is false by every measure. Lets say this, you are born into a poor family - you still get to go to school that likely has a great library - the scho…

> You can escape poverty by working harder; it is just that working harder will not always work. You can escape poverty by buying lottery tickets too. Obviously it is all about the probabilities. But if you earn $10/hour (what kind of insane unlivable wage is that?) even if you work 16h/day you'll still be poor.

If you work harder than yourself you might still be at the bottom of the pole. It's a competition. If you work harder than the next person above you, you'll definitely earn (keyword is earn) better than them or live a more comfortable life than them.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#519

Post by YinglingLight » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 2:35 PM UTC

sharemywin wrote: post #488

YinglingLight wrote: post #441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Delayed gratification is the mechanism behind all steps.

someone has to invest in you besides just you. could be parents, government, mentor, investor, teacher.

Do you suggest that 'delayed gratification' is a nature/nurture trait?

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#520

Post by snowwrestler » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 2:38 PM UTC

noobermin wrote: post #18

It's not like meritocracy is completely unrelated to real life, it matters in a certain regime. However, if like Vanessa, you're born to lesser circumstances, you just cannot escape poverty by just working harder. Similarly, if you are born to very well off standards, even if you're a dope and spend money from Dad's inheritance on cocaine, sure, you won't be successful but you'll still have a net of some kind. You ca…

Attributing outcomes to inherent properties, instead of systems and interactions, seems to be a fundamental mental error that is manifested in language, at least in English.

We say that a blanket or jacket "is warm", even though all it's doing is trapping heat that we produce. We say a task "is difficult", even though we are the ones who are having the difficulty in completing it. We say an apple "is red" even if we know that the color we perceive is a property of how light interacts with the apple's matter.

And we often say that people "are poor" rather than "in poverty."

Language exists somewhere between representing the way we think, and affecting the way we think. Attributing poverty to an inherent property of a particular person, rather than their context, seems in line with how we speak (and perhaps think) about a lot of the world around us.

I think this is one reason it is so hard to fix social problems: because the first step must be a critical mass of people who can and will overcome a default way of thinking about the world.