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Intel Confronts Potential ‘PR Nightmare’ With Reported Chip Flaw

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Re: Intel Confronts Potential ‘PR Nightmare’ With Reported Chip Flaw

#511
post #399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ARM is such a shitstorm. At least the PC with UEFI is a standard. With every ARM device, you have to have a specialized kernel rom just for that device. There have been efforts made on things like PostmarketOS, but still in general, ARM isn't an architecture. It's random pins soldered to an SoC to make a single use pile of shit.

Why is it an issue to need a different kernel image for each device? I don't see a problem as long as there is a simple mechanism to specify your device to generate the right image. It's already like that with coreboot/libreboot/librecore, and it worked just fine for me.

Imagine that you are the person leading the team that's making an embedded system on an ARM SOC. It's not Linux, so you have your own boot code, drivers and so forth. It's not just a matter of "welp, get another kernel image." You're doing everything from the bare metal on up.

(I should remark that there are good reasons for this effort. Such as: It boots in under 500ms, it's crazy efficient, doesn't use much RAM, and your company won't let you use anything with a GPL license for reasons that the lawyers are adamant about).

So now you get to find all the places where the vendor documentation, sample code and so forth is wrong, or missing entirely, or telling the truth but about a different SOC. You find the race conditions, the timing problems, the magic tuning parameters that make things like the memory controller and the USB system actually work, the places where the cache system doesn't play well with various DMA controllers, the DMA engines that run wild and stomp memory at random, the I2C interfaces that randomly freeze or corrupt data . . . I could go on.

It's fun, but nothing you learn is very transferrable (with the possible exception of mistrust of people at big silicon houses who slap together SOCs).

Re: Intel Confronts Potential ‘PR Nightmare’ With Reported Chip Flaw

#512

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is a good thing...?

Martha Stewart did jail time for insider trading. Turns out the SEC isn't messing around, and they don't hand out community service, probation and fines for this stuff.

That's a common misconception. She did not do jail time for insider trading. She almost certainly would have gotten away with it. The problem is she lied to a federal agent while trying to hide her inside trading. That's what they charged and convicted her with.

Re: Intel Confronts Potential ‘PR Nightmare’ With Reported Chip Flaw

#513
post #511
post #399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it an issue to need a different kernel image for each device? I don't see a problem as long as there is a simple mechanism to specify your device to generate the right image. It's already like that with coreboot/libreboot/librecore, and it worked just fine for me.

Imagine that you are the person leading the team that's making an embedded system on an ARM SOC. It's not Linux, so you have your own boot code, drivers and so forth. It's not just a matter of "welp, get another kernel image." You're doing everything from the bare metal on up. (I should remark that there are good reasons for this effort. Such as: It boots in under 500ms, it's crazy efficient, doesn't use much RAM, an…

The responsibility to document the quirks and necessary workarounds lie with the manufacturer of the hardware. If the manufacturer doesn't provide the necessary documentation, then that's exactly that: insufficient documentation to use the device.

There are hardware manufacturers that are better than others at being open and providing documentation. My minimal level of required support and documentation right now is mainline linux support.

Can you document your work publicly, or is there something I can read about it? I'm very interested in alternative kernels beside Linux.

Re: Intel Confronts Potential ‘PR Nightmare’ With Reported Chip Flaw

#514

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Should the individual companies hurry to patch it. There is no news of exploit as such.

There is now !

Intel CEO added - "But when you take a look at the difficulty it is to actually go and execute this exploit — you have to get access to the systems, and then access to the memory and operating system — we're fairly confident, given the checks we've done, that we haven't been able to identify an exploit yet."

It seems you need root or physical access to the system as a prerequisite for the attack.

Re: Intel Confronts Potential ‘PR Nightmare’ With Reported Chip Flaw

#516
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is typically what happens when you go for a long time without real competition. You get way too comfortable and bad habits start to pile up.

There are people looking to deploy ARM servers now. However I wish there had been more server competition. Many companies write their backend services in Python, JVM (Java/Scala/Groovy), Ruby, etc. Stuff that would run fine on Power, ARM or other architectures. There are very few specialized libraries that really require x86_64 (like ffmpeg and video-transcoding)

ffmpeg works great on ARM. I don't know if the PPC port is all that optimized lately.

Re: Intel Confronts Potential ‘PR Nightmare’ With Reported Chip Flaw

#517
post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a good thing CPU is fairly compressible. Unless you meter it very carefully, you'll see the performance hit and it'll not impact you that much. Very few of my physical boxes are over 70% CPU utilization on a daily average. It's, however, really bad if you sell CPU cycles for a living. You just lost between 5 and 30% of your capacity. If you have a large building, you just lost part of your parking lot to the Int…

>It's, however, really bad if you sell CPU cycles for a living. Who really sells CPU cycles? Cloud providers sell instances priced per core. So the real hit is by the customers since they have to shell out for more instances for the same amount of computing power. The hit I see is by providers of 'serverless' computing, since they charge per request and have their margins reduced.

A lot of companies do, including many ycombinator startups. Think of anything that's analytics, data science, data warehouse or advertising related. The costs to run their service just took a hit.

Re: Intel Confronts Potential ‘PR Nightmare’ With Reported Chip Flaw

#518
post #19

This is a clusterf /big deal. Beyond the security implications, it means that all companies paying for computing resources will have to pay roughly 30% more overnight on cloud expenses for the same amount of CPU, assuming that they can just scale up their infrastructure. I know that bugs happen and that there was nothing intentional on this one, but at times like this is hard to held at bay the temptation of claiming…

> claiming for a class lawsuit against Intel If people who received written assurance from Intel that their hardware is 100% bug free can form a legal class, sure. I highly doubt there is even a single one such customer.

What is bug free? CPUs work just fine. There is no bug.

The question is did anyone receive performance assurance from Intel? Probably not.

Some cloud providers or compute grids just lost a lot. Maybe they will find an angle to claim compensation.

Re: Intel Confronts Potential ‘PR Nightmare’ With Reported Chip Flaw

#519

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It has very little to do with what kind of syscalls (I/O or other kinds) and all to do with how many syscalls a given application makes per given time period. Compute bound applications are already avoiding syscalls in their hotter parts. This will mostly be a blow to databases, caching servers and other such I/O limited applications.

In other words, don't worry - pretty much all the key performance bottlenecks most of us deal with at work will be getting tighter, but at least our video games will still run OK.

Well, sounds like that time when there is no water left but there are still beers in the fridge.

At least we can play our sorrows away.

Re: Intel Confronts Potential ‘PR Nightmare’ With Reported Chip Flaw

#520
post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmm. Since everyone that sells (Intel) CPU cycles for a living suffers the same loss of supply this boils down to pricing; the same demand chasing fewer cycles will drive up prices and the market will adapt. 30% is a big hit. I'm wondering if that isn't a bit exaggerated, or perhaps the consequence of a poorly optimized workarounds that will rapidly improve. I recall seeing figures on the order of 3% only a few days…

30% is a worst case for a workload optimized to hit the performance bug as hard as possible. How big it will be for your workload is a function of what your workload is. Benchmark if it is important to you.

50%, rather, is the worst case scenario. 30% is a bad case scenario, and 5% best-case scenario. Which is still a lot for large cloud providers like amazon, google, microsoft.
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