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I'm not a Woman in Tech

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511–520 of 621 posts

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#511
post #267

"You’re victimising me when you do that. You’re indicating that it’s most likely I need special, extra support. Just because I’m female." This is exactly how I felt during my Microsoft internship in 1998 when the internal women's organization, HOPPERS, decided to change their successful "intern buddy" program from opt-in to opt-out. (Well, not really opt-out, because until I got upset with them about it they clearly…

The females in tech I know want maternity/paternity leave, respect, good work/life balance, a culture that values intelligent discussion, and fair salaries. You know, the stuff that most men want too.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#512

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you believe decisions like this are randomly made? > "Why not offer everyone an 'intern buddy'" Female interns could have complained about sexual harassment, female interns could have had lower rates of accepting return offers, etc. > "Also, why change from opt-in to opt-out" The program had been going on for a while. They could have had data that suggested that female interns would be interested in such a program…

Do you believe that decisions like this exclude men because women are so much more fragile and need more help than men? Do you think that men may not need similar help. "intern buddy" doesn't imply a gender role, and maybe should choose to be an inclusive concept instead of exclusive. The also could have just winged it and made the decision without backing data based on the advice of a gender studies professional.

I don't know what reasons Microsoft had for making the program exclusive to women, because I think men would also benefit. Here's my guess: gender affects mentorship. An older man having a close working relationship with a young woman, inviting her out to lunch, and getting drinks after work carries implications that simply do not exist with a young man. Having these interactions take place within a socially sanctioned program helps everyone out because it clarifies the nature of the relationship to both the participants and the onlookers.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#513

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you believe decisions like this are randomly made? > "Why not offer everyone an 'intern buddy'" Female interns could have complained about sexual harassment, female interns could have had lower rates of accepting return offers, etc. > "Also, why change from opt-in to opt-out" The program had been going on for a while. They could have had data that suggested that female interns would be interested in such a program…

As an aside, my first job involved mentoring software engineering interns. I was the "intern buddy", and the policy was for all incoming interns regardless of their gender. The transition from college to work life can be challenging for many people (it was for me, I wish I had an intern buddy), regardless of their gender.

That sounds like a great program.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#514

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those damn Japanese ^W Mexicans ^W Martians ^W Klingons ^W Cardassians ^W Borg!

Hey you leave the Borg out of this. They're the most inclusive group out there!

Talk about a rough way to learn you have a new 'intern buddy.'

Why do you resist? We only wish to raise the quality of life for all...

Course, same solution for them too. Back off Borg. If your society's so great, sell it to me, don't force yourself on me.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#515
post #267

"You’re victimising me when you do that. You’re indicating that it’s most likely I need special, extra support. Just because I’m female." This is exactly how I felt during my Microsoft internship in 1998 when the internal women's organization, HOPPERS, decided to change their successful "intern buddy" program from opt-in to opt-out. (Well, not really opt-out, because until I got upset with them about it they clearly…

The one advantage I see beyond the traditional self-organization of various diversity groups is that an ERG can do a lot with a non zero amount of money, and influence within the recruiting department. Forced participation is never a good thing when it comes to this type of stuff, but to have the money to send those who do wish to participate to events that help those who feel excluded, to feel included is certainly…

I agree.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#516
post #507
post #482

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for saying this--too often people hand-wave away others' problems though, ironically, they may end up inheriting them. Your comment reminded me about an article on how Millennial women are conflicted about being breadwinners. [1] Between chuckling about how I (a Millennial guy) have said many of the quotes nearly verbatim, it dawned on me that as we approach equality in the workplace these women are being now…

Haha! On point. I can identify with that article. Man, there's this wonderful quote about this I wish I could find, about how women were somehow sold the idea that the working world, the land of heart attacks and ulcers, was where the real awesomeness in life was happening, and where they wanted to be. There's this documentary that I just love on this topic. This lady decides she wants to see what the world of men is…

That's a really fascinating documentary. Interesting to see a woman analyzing male issues from a first-hand perspective, haha! I did think it was a little funny at the end, the guy saying "this will be revolutionary" but today it's mostly the same, though I do believe things are slowly getting better for both sides.

You're pretty alright :) Have a good evening!

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#517

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you asking sincerely, or are you trying to do some false equivalence sealioning nonsense?

It seemed like a legitimate question. The parent comment said pretty much every selectivity group is okay except for white males and the child post simply asked why is that the case. At least that's how I read it.

My point is that I find it extremely hard to believe that anybody could ask the question "what's wrong with a whites only event?" in sincerity.

That said, I admit that a men only event is reasonable in certain circumstances.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#518
post #318
post #14

There's sexism in tech, and to address it you have to call it for what it is. I'm glad her experiences are such that she hasn't encountered these barriers, but other people have, and they need these words and spaces. Take my previous job. Women were objectified on Slack. A woman was groped, though she didn't report it out of concern for the repercussions. In meetings execs, male execs would only address/look at the m…

> but as a group, it's undeniable that there's extra obstacles I'm not sure you can really say that. It's true, women as a group encounter problems with being treated as sex objects, and there are cultural reasons for that, blah blah blah. So women have a unique experience. BUT! Men experience a pressure to succeed that we as women can hardly fathom. Consequently, they wind up in jobs they need , in a way we never wi…

Not sure I agree that men have a pressure to succeed that women don't. My wife faced plenty of this pressure in her software career: as a point of professional pride, as a prerequisite to career advancement, and because her family raised her to be financially independent. Stuff you cite was all stuff my wife went through as much as I.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#519

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you believe that decisions like this exclude men because women are so much more fragile and need more help than men? Do you think that men may not need similar help. "intern buddy" doesn't imply a gender role, and maybe should choose to be an inclusive concept instead of exclusive. The also could have just winged it and made the decision without backing data based on the advice of a gender studies professional.

I don't know what reasons Microsoft had for making the program exclusive to women, because I think men would also benefit. Here's my guess: gender affects mentorship. An older man having a close working relationship with a young woman, inviting her out to lunch, and getting drinks after work carries implications that simply do not exist with a young man. Having these interactions take place within a socially sanction…

Microsoft didn't make the program.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#520

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Creating an environment in which some people are justifiably afraid to speak, for fear not of counterargument but of very substantial punishment merely for dissenting from, or even seeking more clearly to understand, the permissible range of opinion, seems like a pretty clear problem to me. No doubt some feel otherwise.

> Creating an environment in which some people are justifiably afraid to speak Those who you are appearing to condemn would just as easily use the language of "justifiably afraid to speak" in the context of their own political issues, but I am guessing you would disagree with their particular justifications, yet the implication you seem to be making is that they are "more free" to speak, even though both sides are eq…

It's a bit of a stretch, I think, to equate an intellectually chilly or even hostile reception, on the one hand, with professional blackballing over mere opinions, and in one case that comes to mind an attempt to incite multiple criminal investigations over a piece of satire, on the other.

I don't imagine that either side in the current political conflict would in general be any more virtuous than the other, given power. The thing about power is that, having it, one is tempted to use it. But it would be foolish to ignore the fact that, in the current political conflict, one side by and large does have power, and is less shy daily in wielding it.

Some believe the proper solution to this is to wrest that power away from those who now hold it, the better to wield it and say, well, they hit us first. I understand the appeal, but disagree with the goal; I would rather see a modus vivendi which enables both sides of the political divide to live more or less in peace with one another, ideally without the sort of constant incitement that goes on today. Such behavior seems probable by trivial extrapolation to take us all to a place where nearly none of us wants to go, and even most of those few who think they think otherwise will drown in horror and regret.

Ignoring reality doesn't seem likely to advance such a goal, but on the other hand, there's little evidence to suggest that is a goal which many are likely to share.

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