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Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

nytimes.com

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Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#511

Post by onion2k »

morgante wrote: post #477
nostrademons wrote: post #435

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd question that. My wife is a former bond trader. At one point, the guys on her trading desk took her out to drinks, and one asked her, "So, are you still a virgin?" She was about 25 at the time.

Why is her age relevant? It's not an appropriate question for a colleague anyway, but I'm curious why that would make it worse.

Why is her age relevant?

Asking a woman who's 25 if she's still a virgin is a clearly loaded question - if she says yes then she's admitting to be inexperienced and should sleep with the the 'man' asking in order to learn the ways of the world, and if she says no then she's admitting that she's sexually active and therefore willing to sleep with a 'man' like the one asking the question.

Creepy assholes use this sort of tactic because they get off on making someone else feel bad. If you see it you really should call them out.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#512

Post by morgante »

plinkplonk wrote: post #498
morgante wrote: post #493

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does that mean that powerful men should never hit on women? A rich and powerful VC is almost always going to have more power than any woman he meets. Even if they're not actively raising money or trying to get a job, he's still a powerful man who could someday offer those things. I'm not trying to be trite here, but I really do wonder what the line is. Even as a man, I certainly pay attention to my interactions with…

"A rich and powerful VC is almost always going to have more power than any woman he meets." It means that he should be very careful in doing so, and in any case never do this in the course of his work - e.g: in the course of negotiating with entrepreneurs, or even co-workers. I suspect that if this happened in a non work situation, it wouldn't gather this amount of outside attention. Would a tech VC, hitting on a TV…

My personal strategy is to avoid flirting with or hitting on anyone from the same industry entirely, but I think it's pretty restrictive. People want to have common interests with their partners, and both working in tech is a common interest so I can understand why people pursue it.

It's quite clear that hitting on a subordinate is unacceptable, but when you don't work together it's a lot less clear. Would flirting with someone at a conference party be harassment? What if you were from different companies, but at equal levels? What if you're a VC and she's an entrepreneur (but she hasn't mentioned raising money from you)?

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#513

Post by morgante »

onion2k wrote: post #511
morgante wrote: post #477

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is her age relevant? It's not an appropriate question for a colleague anyway, but I'm curious why that would make it worse.

Why is her age relevant? Asking a woman who's 25 if she's still a virgin is a clearly loaded question - if she says yes then she's admitting to be inexperienced and should sleep with the the 'man' asking in order to learn the ways of the world, and if she says no then she's admitting that she's sexually active and therefore willing to sleep with a 'man' like the one asking the question. Creepy assholes use this sort…

Oh, I agree it's super creepy and would call out any colleague who I saw doing it. I just think it's creepy regardless of her age.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#514

Post by phlakaton »

stcredzero wrote: post #247
lawnchair_larry wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know many people like that, and no, they don't derive an enjoyable power trip out of being rejected at all. Theybdon't know they can get away with it. They don't know that they are doing it . These people are rarely evil and predatory. They usually genuinely believe that the behavior they are exhibiting is desireable. They think that this is how the game is played, and these things are a form of peacocking. They th…

I know many people like that, and no, they don't derive an enjoyable power trip out of being rejected at all. Theybdon't know they can get away with it. They don't know that they are doing it. These people are rarely evil and predatory. They usually genuinely believe that the behavior they are exhibiting is desirable. Basically, power corrupts. Being a boss, an investor, or an employer comes with power. Just having t…

I think this is suitable behavior for adults, rational or otherwise. We're human and, especially when we're young, inexperienced, or anxious, we don't always navigate the boundaries cleanly. To be honest, I too was told something like that once upon a time – and yeah, you'd better believe I got the message! Hopefully you immediately stopped whatever behavior was making them uncomfortable and apologized.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#515

Post by bt4u2 »

gizmo wrote: post #226
smmsnsks wrote: post #193

Avoiding this situation is why I never meet women 1:1 outside of conference rooms, yet Mike Pence was roundly mocked for doing this.

Regardless of intent, this contributes to the problem. A lot of mentoring and networking happens on a 1:1 basis, and if men refuse to meet women 1:1 in situations where they would meet with other men, then women will lose out on career opportunities.

Definitely. But what are you supposed to do? "Don't overstep boundaries", sure, but that's not a very practical advice. In this life you will overstep sometimes. Like bugs in code, it's unfortunate, but unavoidable.

I wouldn't risk my career for a man, so why should I risk it for a woman? The rational thing seems to be playing it safe.

The whole situation is nuts

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#516

Post by Smaug123 »

ethanwillis wrote: post #437
ingenuous2 wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if the choice were "no investment or attention" versus "creepy attention and small investment"? Entrepreneurs are so willing to sacrifice, and this should not be the situation, but what if it is? How many of us males would accept these types of advances in order to get our idea funded? To think that we can remove power from sex is misguided. There were times during my startup that I would have wished for the att…

I personally wouldn't want unwanted sexual advances to get money for a startup.

Though of course this is explicitly a personal preference.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#518

Post by csomar »

bt4u wrote: post #342
kelukelugames wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe the best way to phrase this is "If there is mutual attraction." Plenty of people marry their co workers. And there are plenty of non creepy/harassing ways to figure out if someone else is interested.

Are there? Please explain them to me. I'm serious and want to learn

I'm not saying what sokoloff said is wrong (or doesn't work) but I'd not invite a woman (or a person) to coffee before getting a physical approval. This physical approval (eye contact + smile) is usually a certain indicator of interest. I'm talking about same level co-worker.

I'd not go with a co-worker that I have power on (like being the direct manager, or the VC). I can see many ways where the relationship can go awfully wrong.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#519

Post by plinkplonk »

morgante wrote: post #512
plinkplonk wrote: post #498

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"A rich and powerful VC is almost always going to have more power than any woman he meets." It means that he should be very careful in doing so, and in any case never do this in the course of his work - e.g: in the course of negotiating with entrepreneurs, or even co-workers. I suspect that if this happened in a non work situation, it wouldn't gather this amount of outside attention. Would a tech VC, hitting on a TV…

My personal strategy is to avoid flirting with or hitting on anyone from the same industry entirely, but I think it's pretty restrictive. People want to have common interests with their partners, and both working in tech is a common interest so I can understand why people pursue it. It's quite clear that hitting on a subordinate is unacceptable, but when you don't work together it's a lot less clear. Would flirting w…

"Would flirting with someone at a conference party be harassment? "

People have been evicted from conferences and lost their jobs for using 'inappropriate' language that some one passing by happened to hear.So yes, I would think this is a dangerous thing to do, and possibly a violation of the conference's code of conduct if it has one.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#520

Post by bt4u2 »

bdamm wrote: post #144

I have a confession to make. With few exceptions, I cannot work with a woman without thinking about having sex with her. It's not like I'm trying, it's more like the thought is a blinking red light and I can't help but look at the thought. Then I realize the thought is absurd, but it's already happened. This normally doesn't leak out, but for some women, I will give them "eyes" and usually feel bad about it afterward…

Everyone is like this, and everyone knows it. But you're not supposed to talk about it.

Besides, thoughts are just thoughts. You can choose to try to not act on them

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