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A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

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Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#511
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you may not have it perfectly clear in your mind what "communism" means.

Perhaps you need to convince the public that having a large government handing out a specific allowance to everyone regardless of how hard they work, is somehow different to communism.

So far as I can tell, "the public" has this perfectly clear. (Or at least as clear as "the public" ever has anything, which is not necessarily all that clear.) I think what you mean is that I need to convince you.

I've no idea what (if anything) you would accept as evidence. Here's the first paragraph of the Wikipedia page on communism; feel free to check that the [...]s don't hide anything that changes the meaning.

> [...] communism [...] is a[...] ideology and movement whose ultimate goal is the establishment of the communist society, which is a socioeconomic order structured upon the common ownership of the means of production and the absence of social classes, money, and the state.

Does a universal basic income cause, or require, common ownership of the means of production? Nope. The means of production stay largely in the hands of businesses (or, as the communists might say, of Capital). Does it involve the absence of social classes? Nope. Successful lawyers (say) will continue to have much, much more money and much higher social status than anyone who's largely dependent on basic income. Does it involve the absence of money? Nope. It depends on the continued existence of money. Does it involve the absence of the state? Nope. It depends on the continued existence of the state.

Well, who cares what those pinko loons at Wikipedia say? Communism is whatever they had in the Soviet Union. How about that?

Well, in the Soviet Union they had a centrally planned economy where the government told factories how many of everything to make, etc. Does a universal basic income cause or require that? Nope. Businesses continue to decide what to make and what to sell at what prices; individual consumers continue to decide what to buy. ("But a basic income would require a big government!" Well, kinda, in that the government would be taking in more tax and handing out more money. But that's got nothing to do with central planning. A basic income wouldn't mean that the government would do more of the work; if anything, it should be less because the BI would replace a bunch of other more complicated benefits that require more administrative work to make sure they're going to the "right" people.) In the Soviet Union they had a totalitarian state with secret police, gulags, etc. Does a universal basic income require that? Nope. Obviously. The Soviet Union had undemocratic politics where the Communists were always in power. Does a universal basic income require that? Nope. Obviously.

"Communism" does not mean the same as "anything vaguely leftish that I don't like".

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#512

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To make it work you'd have to take whatever the amount is and extract it from all other government benefit programs. You get $700 / month from the government for basic income. Your social security, welfare, unemployment, disability, etc is reduced by $700 / month. Reducing all of those programs by the first $700 would effectively gut each of them enough to finally make some reforms without inducing panic in everyone…

IMO social security is too much of a hot button issue to touch. I'd market UBI as "social security for everyone" - that sets both the level that people get, and neatly removes the issue of giving both UBI and social security to retirees.

>I'd market UBI as "social security for everyone" - that sets both the level that people get

No, it doesn't. Social security isn't a fixed amount, its based on prior earnings, adjusted by a wage index since the time they were earned, put through formula to get a base benefit amount in the year you start drawing them, and then inflation adjusted after retirement.

So calling a UBI "Social Security for everyone" does not, in fact, tell you what the benefit amount would be -- if the benefit amount is calculated anything like Social Security, the program is nothing like a UBI.

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#513
post #477

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can someone explain to me how a true basic income would be expected to work? If you're not excluding anyone, where does this massive amount of money come from? I suppose it has to be taxed out of the wealthy? So they still receive the income but pay it back in taxes? This is an honest inquiry. Yes you can save money by cutting these programs, but that argument doesn't add up for me yet because you still have to pay E…

Yes, you tax it back. Typically proposals include a flat tax (or flat tax increase) to pay for it. In that case, you net extra money from the system if you make more than the mean, and you net pay into the system if you make more than the mean, but there are no hard cliffs and your next dollar earned still means more money in your pocket at any point.

Ok, combining this with a flat tax does make sense.

> your next dollar earned still means more money in your pocket at any point

This is critical as well, I've known people who get trapped in welfare because they are so far into it that going to work isn't really advantageous.

Thanks for your input!

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#514

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because that's not how markets work. The ones that try would loose all their business to those that didn't.

The amount of wishful thinking in this thread makes me question how many of you have actually functioned in the real world. Have you ever met a group of landlords? Ever talk to any who deal with low income housing? You honestly think they care about "losing business" in a market that they absolutely control and have extremely high demand?

But they won't have control. Not only does basic income allow you to tell your shitty boss to shove it while you live off the dole(I really don't care how lazy you are) but you also get to tell your landlord to shove it now that you have enough free cash to afford a security deposit on a different place.

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#515

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where did I say that the poor invest (they do, in The West, eg in pensions, but we're talking generalities)? We're all clearly consumers. Rich people costume more than there share, they still have excess financial wealth to invest. Redistributing this would allow poorer people opportunity to take part in investment which in turn should lead to more redistribution. Tax increases for the rich in recession would (with a…

You just contradicted yourself, and agreed that the rich invest while the poor consume. Glad we are in agreement!

>agreed that the rich invest while the poor consume //

You just twisted my words and acted disingenuously.

I said, for the third time, the rich consume. The rich consume far more than the poor. The rich invest more than the poor, but that's because the poor don't have money to invest. Take all the money from the rich and give it to the poor and consumption and investment will shift. The people holding the money aren't as special as capitalism would have us assume.

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#516
post #99

This article says it's talking about a universal basic income, and makes the usual point that a completely universal, no-strings-attached income is simple to administer, doesn't have poverty traps, etc. And then, towards the end where it starts looking at numbers, it starts saying things like > But by excluding 45 million retirees who already receive a basic income through Social Security, the cost falls to $2.7 tril…

It's not just wealthier people who will be worse off - it's everyone. Basic income is known to create a large disincentive for work. In previous experiments (Mincome) labor supply dropped by about 10% - double what happened during the great recession. This means that fewer working mothers can find child care, fewer laborers to mow your lawn, fewer nurses, fewer teachers, etc. No matter how much money you give to peop…

What you left out is that the Mincome program also lowered hospital visits and work-related injuries. Yes, I hear you saying, "of course, less work == less workplace injuries." But what's important is the effect fewer injuries has on productivity. This happened with the 40 hour workweek laws introduced by the New Deal. Fewer injuries, better productivity numbers over the long run. [1] This study was short-lived and should at least be repeated with better controls before we make blanket statements about what will and won't work.

You also gloss over the fact that it allowed mothers to stay home with their children. The benefit to society and productivity of stronger families shouldn't be understated.

Finally, you assume that people would stop cutting lawns, nursing, and providing childcare – why?

1: The Rise and Fall of American Growth: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10544.html

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#517

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There will always be work that some find unglamorous but has to be done. I doubt that garbage collectors see their job as a higher calling or a passion, and yet without solid waste collection society would literally collapse. Somehow, you're assigning lesser intrinsic value to lawn mowing than you are to (eg.) jobs in STEM. Society may have assigned a lesser monetary value to it, but that's a function of supply and d…

I bet you anything there are people who love collecting garbage. Driving huge trucks, being in tune with the scale of human life, seeing the guts of the city, routine... some people love that kind of thing. Where I'm from, there are people who go around picking up trash at the local park out of personal fulfillment in their spare time. They enjoy making the park beautiful. Where do you read me assigning more value to…

I meant the STEM work as an example (hence the eg.) -- sorry if I wasn't more clear. You could just as easily substitute any "skilled" profession -- medicine, etc.

All work can certainly be fulfilling, but more because of the reasons I described (it's a means to an end) than the reasons you're describing. Certainly, people shouldn't be forced to take particularly degrading jobs when they don't want to in order to survive. But do they find it degrading, or do you? Those are two very different things.

It's impossible that there are enough people in the world passionate about garbage collection -- allocated perfectly across the correct geographic regions, mind you -- to fill all of the available positions.

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#518
post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"And it's exactly something that will happen to us..." There's nothing in your mouse anecdote which justifes this conclusion. Humans are, as I'm sure you're well aware, quite different from mice.

Are we? If anything, I'd say we're on-average worse. Of course, anecdotal. So much blind optimism in this thread. I really need to get out, I'm clearly older and more jaded than you kiddoes

Mice don't play soccer, compose symphonies, do crosswords, watch TV, etc. In other words, we're considerably better filling our leisure time than they are.

(I'm 43. 'Kiddo' is slightly insulting and, dare I say, condescending.)

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#519
post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny thing happens when labor supply drops...prices for labor go up. In this case, the market would determine how much they'd need to go up by to get enough people doing things to meet demand. It may be more than many want to pay, but such is life.

a huge amount of work today is done by people instead of machines because people are cheaper than machines. If you make people more expensive than machines, the machines will do the work, and the people can stick to doing something they actually want to do (like playing with their kids, working on a hobby, or exploring the world) Look at the response to a higher minimum wage - McDonalds, which typically runs a store…

I didn't get into this aspect but you're spot on. This upward pressure on prices for certain services could drive innovation into automating them, which benefits society as a whole. It could also transform jobs such that you no longer need a gardener to mow your lawn, but rather a lawn mower drone controller who parks his truck in a neighborhood, and manages a fleet of mowing drones for all his customers there.

This will produce a constant back-and-forth impact on labor markets as jobs are automated, then new jobs are created as a result, and then those jobs are automated. Having the basic income in place allows society to remain functioning while this happens and makes it more able to weather the changes and adapt.

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#520

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. Obesity is far more complex than that, I'm also looking at the global perspective. Obesity to me is about lack of resources for better nutrition (though companies push junk pretty hard), lack of education, and lack of will power. FWIW I'm substantially overweight despite being poor enough to need to miss meals in the past couple of years. So give people BI and they'll just get blazed/drunk all the time, and make…

> So give people BI and they'll just get blazed/drunk all the time, and make other mischief, is that your assessment? Not everyone, but the noisy few will far outweigh those that are "culturally enriching" themselves with "art" and "scientific exploration". Just look at what's happening in the western welfare class already. How does this not become an extension of that? I'm so absolutely unconvinced by this thread. I…

I'm sorry, what exactly is happening to the "western welfare class"?
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