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On asking job candidates to code

philcalcado.com

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Re: On asking job candidates to code

#511

Post by mamoswined »

driverdan wrote: post #435
robodale wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right with you buddy. I no longer accept coding challenges or even interviews that go over 30 min. I tell them my services are $150/hour. If you want me to do a 4-8 hour exercise for the privilege of interviewing further then make it worth my time...just like any other consulting gig I do.

What you're actually saying is "I have enough freelance / contract work and am not looking for a full time job." I said similar things when I was freelancing. If you were actually looking for a full time position you'd do the interview. It's completely reasonable to require an unpaid interview from a candidate.

Not a multi hour one though. My first programming job interview was 6 hours and I had no idea that was even a thing. Now I inform places I'm interviewing "Hey I am taking 1.5 hours vacation/PTO whatever, so I need to be back at work after that time."

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#512

Post by bogomipz »

SilasX wrote: post #496
bogomipz wrote: post #492

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except glassdoor is a joke. Have you looked at it lately? Everything behind a sign up wall? Terrible layout and iframes.

Yes, how horrible of them to restrict expensively-gathered content to those who have signed up for free...

How is user generated content "expensively-gathered"? Content comes at exactly no cost to them so yeah it is lame. The data comes from community. Have you looked at the site?

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#513

Post by collyw »

busterarm wrote: post #356
ironchef wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Why not just bypass the bullshit challenges and just _have a conversation about code_?" Because talking and doing can be different? _Do_ they actually write test cases? Do they write documentation? Do they make output machine parseable? etc. I want to see what work product looks like even if the work product is simple. (which is also why the homework I assign is nothing ridiculous like 8 hours nor do I timebox it)

Talk about that stuff. People sometimes spend extra time polishing a code challenge than they do in their day-to-day. People can lie to you in code just like they can in conversation. Sure, you know that their ability to do it is there, but you still don't know that they will and you still don't know that if they didn't they could learn. You can get that information from having the right conversation. What testing to…

"People sometimes spend extra time polishing a code challenge than they do in their day-to-day. "

Maybe thats because they are under resourced in their day to day, and don't get a chance to do things nicely despite complaining to management about it constantly.

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#514

Post by SilasX »

bogomipz wrote: post #512
SilasX wrote: post #496

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, how horrible of them to restrict expensively-gathered content to those who have signed up for free...

How is user generated content "expensively-gathered"? Content comes at exactly no cost to them so yeah it is lame. The data comes from community. Have you looked at the site?

Really? Setting up the site was free? Architecting the systems scalably was free? Popularizing it was free? Getting people to give their information to it was free? Protecting it from spammers and malicious activity was free? Securing it was free? Usefully organizing the data was free? Protection from lawsuits was free?

GlassDoor didn't just put itself together one morning, or a free, open-source one would already exist.

Do you also spread the meme about "Viagra was invented by accident", as if all the clinical testing, information dissemnation, regulatory approval, chemical isolation, etc were accidents too?

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#515

Post by im_down_w_otp »

tangled_zans wrote: post #504
im_down_w_otp wrote: post #410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. To start with there are many, many models for personality profiling. I tend to stick to "The Big 5" mostly because it's foibles don't sufficiently affect the outcomes I care about, and I've gotten proficient enough at it that with the right set of questions in the right environment I can typically get a pretty good read on at least 4 out of the 5 factors, and given a follow-up interaction I can usually clear up…

Hey, thanks for the reply, your insights are amazing. Totally with you on the whole "being an introvert who learned the traits of extroversion" thing too. I've played around with the Big Five model ages ago and found it to be a really good way to look at personality. I especially liked its usefulness for self-assessment - like you say it's easy to self-deceive yourself into thinking that you're much more open and non…

Sure, do you want to take this conversation offline? This is just going to get buried deeper and deeper and eventually become locked when it's stale enough.

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#516

Post by tangled_zans »

im_down_w_otp wrote: post #515
tangled_zans wrote: post #504

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey, thanks for the reply, your insights are amazing. Totally with you on the whole "being an introvert who learned the traits of extroversion" thing too. I've played around with the Big Five model ages ago and found it to be a really good way to look at personality. I especially liked its usefulness for self-assessment - like you say it's easy to self-deceive yourself into thinking that you're much more open and non…

Sure, do you want to take this conversation offline? This is just going to get buried deeper and deeper and eventually become locked when it's stale enough.

Yeah, good idea! My e-mail is zans.lancs at gmail dot com

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#517

Post by asavadatti »

neoCrimeLabs wrote: post #376

I just want to create a well documented simple resful API for applicants to use. If an applicant wants to apply for a job they have to write code in the language of their choice to apply using the API. Upon successful application, request their SSH public key and supply a git repository they can check their code into. A hook script will email me upon successful commit. A moderately experienced dev will not spend much…

That is actually a great idea.

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#518

Post by busterarm »

collyw wrote: post #513
busterarm wrote: post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Talk about that stuff. People sometimes spend extra time polishing a code challenge than they do in their day-to-day. People can lie to you in code just like they can in conversation. Sure, you know that their ability to do it is there, but you still don't know that they will and you still don't know that if they didn't they could learn. You can get that information from having the right conversation. What testing to…

"People sometimes spend extra time polishing a code challenge than they do in their day-to-day. " Maybe thats because they are under resourced in their day to day, and don't get a chance to do things nicely despite complaining to management about it constantly.

A lot of people have the "get it done so I can get out the door" mentality and cut corners which they obviously wouldn't/shouldn't do during their interview process.

Though them not doing it and spending the energy to "complain to management constantly" might be a problem too. I'm sure we're all familiar with terrible management practices, but some people are complainers and some people are pushovers and you don't want either (or at least you don't want to bias your team towards one or the other).

Being able to calmly explain a process problem and demonstrate why is a critical skill. If you're in a company where that's a waste of time, don't complain, just leave. If you can't fix or guide people, your code still won't get shit done.

I think a lot of people, ourselves included, think that we're in the business of writing code, but this is actually a mistake. We're doing business Operations, yes, with the capital-O. The only difference is that our tools to get the job done are "our software, our people and other people's software" instead of just "our people and other peoples' software".

Developer is the right title for us most of the time.

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#519

Post by collyw »

neverminder wrote: post #34
kasey_junk wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is giving out an 8+ hour programming project as part of the application process really considered good hiring practice? I'd say 8 hours is too long. I always strive for a 4 hours, but I've seen that 4 hours chop 16 hours off of the candidates time and more than 32 off of the companies. > What's the point of maintaining an online portfolio and a github profile full of code The vast, vast, vast majority of candidates…

I was one of this vast majority once, so I know how it feels. Eventually though however slowly, but I've gathered enough code samples on my github account, samples that are actually rather unique and at the same time useful and getting starred. It takes time, polishing, sure, but as a result quite a few companies stopped asking me doing coding tasks, so I'd say in the end it's worth it.

I built something specifically for that purpose, but people still seem to want me to do pointless coding tests.

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#520

Post by Chris2048 »

iolothebard wrote: post #507
Chris2048 wrote: post #487

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't doubt you're a white man, but it makes no difference. What exactly are you, as an individual, missing in terms of diversity? > "the broad array of cultures and experiences brings different opinions to the table" Technical opinions? What does this mean exactly? This is the bad implication I was talking about, that a group of white males is somehow deficient relative to any group of people.

It's like having a discussion with a wall. Have a nice day :-)

You think insults aren't insults if you add a nicety on the end?

Clearly I didn't read what you wrote, otherwise I'd be agreeing with you already, right?

Or you're just spouting mindless diversity soundbite rhetoric..

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