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Has AI already killed self-help nonfiction books?

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Re: Has AI already killed self-help nonfiction books?

#501

Post by Fantosism »

murkt wrote: post #275
Fantosism wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean this with the purest intentions. I've read Never Split the Difference, Never Eat Alone, Getting More, How to Win Friends and Influence People, etc. How do you get it to feel like it's not manipulation? I get all of these books advertise not to lie, but at the end of the day, I'm reshaping my speech to achieve a certain goal, rather than to convey facts. The best line I've come up with is something like: am I s…

I’ve genuinely read only Never Split the Difference from your list, and it’s kind of the opposite from manipulation. The book teaches how to actually hear people even in the very emotionally charged situations, how to properly ask them questions to understand their point of view and their needs. If I understand my son’s needs and can give him what he wants in exchange of him giving me what I want, how is that a manip…

I think we're describing different halves of the same book.

I don't have a problem with generally understanding someone's needs. You ask what he wants, you say what you want, you both find a common middle ground.

But that's not what I'm worried about. He also teaches you things like give gifts to instill a sense of reciprocity. Use odd numbers so it appears as if you've put in research to arrive at this figure. "Bend reality" by moving around deadlines. Take advantage of cognitive biases like loss aversion.

Actual empathy is one thing, steering someone into thinking that your preferred outcome was their own idea is another. And that steering is precisely the manipulation I can't shake off. I'd be fine with the other person knowing I'm actually empathizing. But all those other techniques rely on the other person not noticing, which falls into my definition of manipulation.

Re: Has AI already killed self-help nonfiction books?

#502

Post by ragequittah »

K0balt wrote: post #486
AussieWog93 wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually crashed out semi-recently about this exact thing, quit church and all and was genuinely surprised when the people who were speaking politeley to me reached out in a genuine, non-public and non-coerced way. I don't think the word "inauthentic" quite captures why people react negatively to this sort of communication. At least part of it comes from the fact that this particular style of "kindness-is-cool-code…

If your were (never mind presented as) inauthentic after reading HTWFAIP your reading comprehension was lacking. HTWFAIP is about building authentic, mutually beneficial relationships with people, not shining them on. I’m totally with you about fake people, but HTWFAIP is not about that. Aside from being about forming sincere relationships, it handles influence with essentially this advice: Stop trying to force peopl…

I see this as a type of psychological manipulation. Almost everyone is interested in other people's story and the basic human trait of listening gets you over that hump. The "and align your request with their self-interest and self-image" part is what gets me. As an off-the-cuff example that someone might use this advice to craft:

“You’re such a generous person. I know you love being there for friends. Could you help me move Saturday?”

It's an example that of course sounds ridiculous to anybody that reads it, but it's essentially what the book teaches. Gather information not even about the person but how the person feels about themselves and then use that as a tool to make them feel good when you're talking to them.

I suppose it's also not helped that many of the people I've met who use this and admire this book have psychopathic traits. They're very good at faking caring but actually can't. It's a cold calculation to them and admittedly it's very effective at getting them ahead.

Re: Has AI already killed self-help nonfiction books?

#503

Post by K0balt »

ragequittah wrote: post #502
K0balt wrote: post #486

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your were (never mind presented as) inauthentic after reading HTWFAIP your reading comprehension was lacking. HTWFAIP is about building authentic, mutually beneficial relationships with people, not shining them on. I’m totally with you about fake people, but HTWFAIP is not about that. Aside from being about forming sincere relationships, it handles influence with essentially this advice: Stop trying to force peopl…

I see this as a type of psychological manipulation. Almost everyone is interested in other people's story and the basic human trait of listening gets you over that hump. The "and align your request with their self-interest and self-image" part is what gets me. As an off-the-cuff example that someone might use this advice to craft: “You’re such a generous person. I know you love being there for friends. Could you help…

I guess if you are feigning interest it is manipulation, but the book speaks specifically against that. If you want to make friends, you have to be genuinely interested and invested. If you want to influence people, you have to be sincere and aligned. (Modern politics puts the lie to these requirements, but that is what the book teaches)

I don’t know how you could read that book in a modern frame and get syrupy insincerity out of it in good faith, but it is true that many people read this type of book looking for shortcuts and hacks, so they are not looking for the good faith reading. If you read the rest of NH’s work, you will find that his philosophy is firmly based on genuine good faith and delivering disproportionally high value to the people you interact with. (As well as some very 19th century metaphysics you can safely ignore)

But yes, many people read that book, ape the ideas, and act like asshats. It’s hardly a failing of the book.

Re: Has AI already killed self-help nonfiction books?

#504

Post by seizethecheese »

digitaltrees wrote: post #221
seizethecheese wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kudos for delivering. #1 sounds a lot like stoicism.

Question for you, is my handle orange? I realized my company went stale after a pivot. Just curious if that is reflected on HN. I was recently surprised by a bookface status change :) might need to reach out to say “hey still alive just not in the original form”.

I’m colorblind but it looks either orange or green, not normal color

Re: Has AI already killed self-help nonfiction books?

#505

Post by murkt »

Fantosism wrote: post #501
murkt wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve genuinely read only Never Split the Difference from your list, and it’s kind of the opposite from manipulation. The book teaches how to actually hear people even in the very emotionally charged situations, how to properly ask them questions to understand their point of view and their needs. If I understand my son’s needs and can give him what he wants in exchange of him giving me what I want, how is that a manip…

I think we're describing different halves of the same book. I don't have a problem with generally understanding someone's needs. You ask what he wants, you say what you want, you both find a common middle ground. But that's not what I'm worried about. He also teaches you things like give gifts to instill a sense of reciprocity. Use odd numbers so it appears as if you've put in research to arrive at this figure. "Bend…

Yeah, probably different halves of the book. I've read it a few years ago, and it looks like I've just ignored/forgot all that "bending reality" stuff. It's not my cup of tea, so I remembered only the good parts of it

Re: Has AI already killed self-help nonfiction books?

#506

Post by abhishekjiitr »

If self-help was just about reading the insights then millions of people would have "won friends and influenced people", and those book summary apps would be billion dollar companies. They'are not

Self-help books are absolutely worthless if you don't internalise their insights, practice applying it into your life on a daily basis until it becomes muscle memory, and actually spend time on it. The insight is never actually the bottleneck.

AI can surface insights better and faster than any book. But speed is the problem, not the solution. Books are on the contrary slower, and slowness is the point. Without discpline, AI might be a worse choice.

For deeper topics, I don't think books are going away anytime soon.

Re: Has AI already killed self-help nonfiction books?

#507

Post by digitaltrees »

ragequittah wrote: post #502
K0balt wrote: post #486

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your were (never mind presented as) inauthentic after reading HTWFAIP your reading comprehension was lacking. HTWFAIP is about building authentic, mutually beneficial relationships with people, not shining them on. I’m totally with you about fake people, but HTWFAIP is not about that. Aside from being about forming sincere relationships, it handles influence with essentially this advice: Stop trying to force peopl…

I see this as a type of psychological manipulation. Almost everyone is interested in other people's story and the basic human trait of listening gets you over that hump. The "and align your request with their self-interest and self-image" part is what gets me. As an off-the-cuff example that someone might use this advice to craft: “You’re such a generous person. I know you love being there for friends. Could you help…

You are conflating manipulation and persuasion.

Manipulation seeks to get someone to do what you want against their interests.

Persuasion seeks to align their interests with your interests in a mutually beneficial manner. The act of speaking to their interests by definition takes their well being into consideration.

Re: Has AI already killed self-help nonfiction books?

#508

Post by digitaltrees »

ragequittah wrote: post #487
randycupertino wrote: post #476

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> putting on an inauthentic mask their entire life because a book told them to. I think the key difference- at least for the book I mentioned - is that it actually teaches to you take a genuine interest in those around you. It's not a mask or a ploy, it is making you engage positively in a way that yields genuine connections.

If at any point in a natural conversation you're going to a trick a book taught you instead of just speaking your mind I'd argue it's a mask of a kind. Example: if at the start of a conversation a personal anecdote comes to mind but you think 'no that's not what the book said, I should talk about the other person instead' I'd argue you're masking your natural persona. If your natural inclination is to raise an eyebro…

Maybe. But many people have a tendency to speak more than listen because they were never taught how to be social and civil. You see that with toddlers. They talk about themselves and what they like. Good parents teach their kids to introduce themselves, ask questions, be curious about their friends and adults in conversation. It’s literally a key developmental phase that determines whether a kid is more narcissistic the rest of their life.

There are similar socialization rituals. When you are in karate you might be taught to bow before entering a dojo or sparring with a partner. Is that an inauthentic mask because you are conforming to the respect rituals? Or how about a military salute? These norms are part of the social lubrication that makes relationships easier to form. And the process of socializing a person is teaching them to incorporate them as authentic parts of themselves.

Re: Has AI already killed self-help nonfiction books?

#509

Post by digitaltrees »

seizethecheese wrote: post #504
digitaltrees wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Question for you, is my handle orange? I realized my company went stale after a pivot. Just curious if that is reflected on HN. I was recently surprised by a bookface status change :) might need to reach out to say “hey still alive just not in the original form”.

I’m colorblind but it looks either orange or green, not normal color

That was not the response I would have ever expected. I am so curious about what your sensory experience is like.

Re: Has AI already killed self-help nonfiction books?

#510

Post by digitaltrees »

sethammons wrote: post #405
digitaltrees wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Question for you, is my handle orange? I realized my company went stale after a pivot. Just curious if that is reflected on HN. I was recently surprised by a bookface status change :) might need to reach out to say “hey still alive just not in the original form”.

Diff person here. Your handle is not orange, it is grey. I have not seen an orange handle. Grey or green (green for new accounts).

YC alum have orange handles. New accounts have green. Most the community has black. And I don’t know if there are other colors but I could imagine YC partners having their own.
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