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Is Meta destroying its engineering organization?

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Re: Is Meta destroying its engineering organization?

#501

Post by intended »

siraris wrote: post #451
throw-the-towel wrote: post #257

I think the gloating in this thread is very misguided. Meta is evil, sure, but that's not the point. The point is that this kind of AI psychosis might be the new normal for our industry, or at least one of the new normals. My last workplace absolutely did a jump in toxicity when the CEO got obsessed with AI, instituted token leaderboards, told us all to drop all non-AI work for a time, etc. We were no Meta.

So I worked for a year and a half at an AI startup that was way ahead of the curve on leveraging LLM's and other generative models. Like way ahead. I lost my job there months ago, but I can tell you that the AI psychosis is real and I watched it before a lot of the rest of the world. Maybe the CEO was always like this, but he went from being a likable, and liked person, to a fucking maniac. Multiple people who had wo…

How much real productivity gains do you think people saw.

I know that lines of codes and PRs go up, but how much of that actually moves the needle forward?

Re: Is Meta destroying its engineering organization?

#502

Post by tverbeure »

_dark_matter_ wrote: post #468
jopolous wrote: post #427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I totally agree, it sounds unbelievable… Problem is, I’m on one of these core infrastructure teams, and for my team at least we lost between 50-75% of our engineers to the AI org. Most of the other infra teams I collaborate with have a similar story

Your team lost 50-75%? Is that an approximation, or do you just not know? Can't you just count who left to get the actual ratio?

Maybe it's better to be vague in a situation like this?

Re: Is Meta destroying its engineering organization?

#503

Post by y2244 »

lokar wrote: post #405
spamizbad wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To an extent that's true, but while Zuck might be hands on but he doesn't typically micromanage his lieutenants. Alexandr was clearly in over his head, has never run anything resembling a high quality engineering org, and blew it up in less than a year. I think his days are numbered.

He does not micromanage, but at the same time he does not tune out. He has to see what’s going on.

Newspapers have said Zuck has a desk in the meta super intelligence lab

Re: Is Meta destroying its engineering organization?

#504

Post by Fordec »

JacobAsmuth wrote: post #289
svachalek wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a similar experience at Google, they were so convinced they were the only good engineering company in the world and had to protect themselves from all the wrong-thinkers outside and yet the only progress they made was via acquisitions.

You'd say that Google Maps hasn't improved much in the last 20 years?

I used to be able to view maps in 3D. Not anything fancy, just a tilt shift. This year I noticed the feature appears to be gone. Also, if I want to see my home city with an up to date overhead view from this side of 2023 to see what has been built lately, I have to go look up Sentinel imagery.

I would claim it has indeed become worse.

Re: Is Meta destroying its engineering organization?

#505

Post by galkk »

svachalek wrote: post #251
ironman1478 wrote: post #70

Having worked at meta, something I noticed is that the orgs that were well run were ones that were bought. WhatsApp, reality, insta, etc. I worked in an org that was not associated with those products and was purely homegrown and it was awful. Things got done but horribly inefficiently due to over hiring and extreme requirement and schedule shifts. I believe that the cultures that were developed outside of Meta are u…

I had a similar experience at Google, they were so convinced they were the only good engineering company in the world and had to protect themselves from all the wrong-thinkers outside and yet the only progress they made was via acquisitions.

Dremel/big query Spanner Borg Chrome

None of those were acquisitions

Re: Is Meta destroying its engineering organization?

#506

Post by smrtinsert »

PaulHoule wrote: post #144

Sad. I thought Meta did a lot of things right when it came to using engineers, especially compared to Google. If I had a choice between React (Facebook) and Kubernetes (Google) I would pick the former anyday. Kubernetes has held back cluster technology for the last decade and prevented a better alternative for smaller companies or companies that can't piss away monopoly profits on unwieldy technology and process. It…

Instagram runs on angular doesn't it? They make more money per user than the core FB product... You might want to revisit your criteria for your FAANG journey

Re: Is Meta destroying its engineering organization?

#507

Post by consp »

dmurray wrote: post #499
annzabelle wrote: post #462

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google Maps put a town label near my parents' house that is a name that was on some old maps in the 1910s, but fell completely out of use before the current suburb was built in the 70s and 80s. I had never heard it once in my life until I was in my early 20s and met a transplant who had picked up the name from Google Maps. I attempted to report it as inaccurate (USGS has had it as being out of use for decades) multip…

Most of the neighbourhood names in my large European city were like this on Google Maps. Either old names or hyperspecific landmark/street names that I had never heard being used as synecdoche for the area. This was definitely true 4-5 years ago. I looked now and it's mostly better at most levels of zoom.

Google maps uses suggestive names (e.g. a park walkway given a name by the municipality) as official road names, and when it does that it marked it as a cycling path. Both are invalid and cycling on them is illegal. This has been going on for years.

Re: Is Meta destroying its engineering organization?

#508

Post by bigfatkitten »

JacobAsmuth wrote: post #289
svachalek wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a similar experience at Google, they were so convinced they were the only good engineering company in the world and had to protect themselves from all the wrong-thinkers outside and yet the only progress they made was via acquisitions.

You'd say that Google Maps hasn't improved much in the last 20 years?

Over the last 8-10 years or so, I’d say it has gotten considerably worse.

Re: Is Meta destroying its engineering organization?

#509

Post by ukprogrammer »

PaulHoule wrote: post #144

Sad. I thought Meta did a lot of things right when it came to using engineers, especially compared to Google. If I had a choice between React (Facebook) and Kubernetes (Google) I would pick the former anyday. Kubernetes has held back cluster technology for the last decade and prevented a better alternative for smaller companies or companies that can't piss away monopoly profits on unwieldy technology and process. It…

Someone who would compare React to Kubernetes instead of React (Facebook) and Vue.js (Google) does not have enough domain knowledge to provide an informed opinion on this matter

Kubernetes is the industry standard cluster orchestrator for a reason - it's fantastic

Re: Is Meta destroying its engineering organization?

#510

Post by aylmao »

siraris wrote: post #451
throw-the-towel wrote: post #257

I think the gloating in this thread is very misguided. Meta is evil, sure, but that's not the point. The point is that this kind of AI psychosis might be the new normal for our industry, or at least one of the new normals. My last workplace absolutely did a jump in toxicity when the CEO got obsessed with AI, instituted token leaderboards, told us all to drop all non-AI work for a time, etc. We were no Meta.

So I worked for a year and a half at an AI startup that was way ahead of the curve on leveraging LLM's and other generative models. Like way ahead. I lost my job there months ago, but I can tell you that the AI psychosis is real and I watched it before a lot of the rest of the world. Maybe the CEO was always like this, but he went from being a likable, and liked person, to a fucking maniac. Multiple people who had wo…

> Maybe the CEO was always like this, but he went from being a likable, and liked person, to a fucking maniac.

I might not know him, but I don't think he changed. I think the circumstances changed and they happened to lead to another expression of who he is.

IMO the "AI psicosis" is just the latest expression of the hyper-capitalist ideology that has taken over Silicon Valley (and the USA).

Engineering at these companies was special, because there was good money to be made from software at practically nil materials and distribution costs. It was all labour; very specific labour. Instead of a million-dollar idea taking months and lots of $$$ to prototype, mass-produce, and distribute, the right people could type for a week, press a button, and reach millions of people pretty much instantly.

Of course capitalism is going to be kind on this type of labour. But as it becomes clear this labour can be replaced with cheaper automation, we just switch to see the other side of the coin; one employees in other industries have seen for a long time. As an employee, you're a human resource, a cost-center, and without proper labour protections, you get treated as such.

Mark Zuckerberg has also always been like this. Not with the engineers back when they were more special, but with the content moderators for example, who have long been considered "replaceable". plenty has been written about how terrible it is to work in content moderation at Meta, the quotas, the little thought given to doing a good job, to mental health, etc. As engineers keep getting less special, they'll keep seeing the face of Zuckerberg that exploits resources, decreases cost, and demands higher margins.

> I am flabbergasted that I am a lowly peon in the machine, and yet unless I'm missing something, I seem to be a lot smarter than most of the people I see running these companies.

This has also long been the case, especially in other industries. I can assure you an average barista at Starbucks knows more about making good coffee and keeping customers happy than the CEO.

Credit where credit is due, the CEO probably does know more about playing the politics, pleasing investors and how to ruthlessly optimize organizations.

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