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Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

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Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#501

Post by gretch »

trunnell wrote: post #435

I'm in the SF bay area w/ middle school and high school age kids. Between San Jose and San Francisco, 15%-30% of kids are in private school (it's 30% in SF where the public schools are extra dysfunctional). That's far above the California statewide average of 8% in private school. Among our peers, somewhere between 1/4 and 1/3 of kids are doing advanced math outside of school, typically either Russian School of Math…

> This is happening despite the fact that both public and private school teachers strongly discourage math outside of school!

Do you have more info on this? Where is it coming from and what does it look like?

Because this is actually crazy if true.

Like, just compare to a situation where they strongly discourage Reading outside of school.

Not to mention that math is just a basic life skill and it gets exercised just going through normal every day stuff (at least middle school level math)

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#502

Post by breppp »

toast0 wrote: post #464
doubled112 wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not? I was in elementary school on IRC. ASL ;-) ?

I'm sure you turned out fine. But the school district can't put a bunch of kids on IRC, it'll look bad.

I wouldn't put any kids through some of the stuff I've seen on IRC

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#503

Post by dmbche »

tracker1 wrote: post #364
VortexLain wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The mechanical actions and the physical presence really helps in retention of the materials. Although this is the case for many people, I personally struggle to process information and write it on paper at the same time. Thus, I strongly prefer digital note-taking and use Obsidian or just vim instead of paper.

I'm not trying to be offensive, but I don't see how typing it into a computer is significantly different than writing it on paper. Is there something stopping you, or anyone from writing it down and taking notes in class and then reviewing it later as needed? Not just process it in lecture time, but regurgitate it to physical form for later review. Also, I would definitely constrain this into educational groups, wher…

If I may, people write (with pens) slower than than can speak, and thus to take good notes you need to synthesize the material you are being explained. You need to understand what you're writing.

Many people can type as fast/faster than they talk, and when typing it is possible to try and type verbatim what is being said. In this case, there is no understanding. (If you've ever taken a class not all that is said is pertinent and not all that is pertinent is said)

I personally don't revisit my written notes their purpose is uniquely for me to remember/understand what I've written.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#504

Post by j_w »

dirtikiti wrote: post #366
j_w wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the "sucky" schools are statistically where poor people go to school, which statistically is where minorities go to school. School choice is bad because the only people who benefit from school choice are already wealthy - they can afford to transport their child to the school of their choice.

>> School choice is bad because the only people who benefit from school choice are already wealthy - they can afford to transport their child to the school of their choice. So what? If "level the playing field" means my kid gets a sub standard education because you have to constantly lower the bar, I don't want to play your game. This stuff isn't new. Everyone understands the importance of education, and everyone und…

Okay but if you care this much about school choice why not move to an area with better schools? That's a tool most people already have.

And yes, most people who are complaining about "school choice" have this tool to some extent. Will your living conditions be exactly the same? Probably not.

> At some point, it has to be about personal responsibility and not blaming everyone else for your failure to be a good parent.

So why don't you take some personal responsibility and put yourself in a residence which is in district for a school that you want your child to go to? Is that not in part your responsibility as a parent? We can both play this stupid game.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#505

Post by j_w »

wagwang wrote: post #347
j_w wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the "sucky" schools are statistically where poor people go to school, which statistically is where minorities go to school. School choice is bad because the only people who benefit from school choice are already wealthy - they can afford to transport their child to the school of their choice.

The people who benefit are not the wealthy, who can afford to simply buy a house in the school district of their desire, but simply middle class parents who care about their kids.

Middle class parents are wealthy compared to the average student of a "sucky" school. These schools are typically the in the poorest areas in the state/county.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#506

Post by sometimelurker »

hedora wrote: post #53

This doesn't surprise me at all. From what I can tell, California's education system has moved from "equality" (which I would define as providing similar opportunities to all the kids) to focusing on "equity" (which I think they define as dictating the same outcome for all kids). To get an idea of how off the rails this has gotten, go read up on their statements trying to justify banning high school calculus. They ex…

> ... you can compute a derivative by 12th grade

The fact that calculus is seen by the public as something really really hard needs to be fixed. I taught myself differentiation in 7th and I'm not proud of it because it's not difficult. Maybe the issue is crappy curriculums and incentives putting the best mathematicians on Wall Street rather than in public schools, but there needs to be a cultural push of some sort. I've given a million last minute math lessons to some of my less math inclined friends, and there is no barrier at all stopping people from learning a ton more math than is taught in schools.

> ... some kids are more talented at some things than other kids ...

This idea is 100% true, but I don't think its a helpful idea in the context of making people learn more math. Unlucky people who internalize this idea end up thinking they are innately worse at understanding abstract ideas, and end up not trying that hard. I completely believe anyone capable of doing a euclidian proof in geometry class can read and fully understand the Bitcoin whitepaper - but they don't. And the barrier for understanding Bitcoin is probably lower than geometry.

> Personally, I think all funding in California education (other than terminal levels like 4 year bachelors and up) should be a function of the percentage of students that succeed at the next step.

This, but at a more localized level by giving teachers bonuses depending on how well the students do in the next grade.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#507

Post by sherburt3 »

dartharva wrote: post #467
WarmWash wrote: post #159

Why do we have such an easy time accepting peoples intrinsic athletic ability and such a difficult time accepting people's intrinsic mental ability? To me this is a 1:1 comparison, but people lose their mind when I make the comparison. College isn't for everyone just like amateur league sport isn't for everyone. I feel like I am going to a minor league baseball game and seeing a shortstop on the field with the motor…

Please.. undergrad college in any stream is a very achievable baseline that literally anyone not afflicted with a pathological mental condition can pass, provided they are interested themselves and are subjected to classes from instructors who are serious about their jobs. All you need is some basic level of discipline and direction. College is not some kind of academic olympics.

Thanks for chiming in Young Sheldon

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#508

Post by mos_basik »

tracker1 wrote: post #364
VortexLain wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The mechanical actions and the physical presence really helps in retention of the materials. Although this is the case for many people, I personally struggle to process information and write it on paper at the same time. Thus, I strongly prefer digital note-taking and use Obsidian or just vim instead of paper.

I'm not trying to be offensive, but I don't see how typing it into a computer is significantly different than writing it on paper. Is there something stopping you, or anyone from writing it down and taking notes in class and then reviewing it later as needed? Not just process it in lecture time, but regurgitate it to physical form for later review. Also, I would definitely constrain this into educational groups, wher…

>I don't see how typing it into a computer is significantly different...

I haven't read up on it much myself, but any discussion along the lines of this subthread re: "handwriting > typing" is probably discussing research that's starting to be talked about more and more in the past 5 years or so (maybe the pandemic and online learning accelerated interest?)

here's a 5m clip of a neuroscientist presenting to the US Senate this year on correlation between dropping academic performance and use of tech in classrooms in many countries over many years, and asking for more research into mechanisms and causation. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fd-_VDYit3U

and here's a paper from a couple years ago describing differences in observed brain activity between handwriting and typewriting and some discussion of how this could be a mechanism of the kind the video was talking about https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/psychology/articles/10....

>Is there something stopping you from...

No, but I feel like it's not hard to argue that default are important.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#509

Post by armchairhacker »

hedora wrote: post #53

This doesn't surprise me at all. From what I can tell, California's education system has moved from "equality" (which I would define as providing similar opportunities to all the kids) to focusing on "equity" (which I think they define as dictating the same outcome for all kids). To get an idea of how off the rails this has gotten, go read up on their statements trying to justify banning high school calculus. They ex…

> I think all funding in California education (other than terminal levels like 4 year bachelors and up) should be a function of the percentage of students that succeed at the next step.

I disagree, and I’m the person who said underperforming kids should be put in work programs or mental institutions (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48060371).

I should’ve chose better words, so let me clarify here: there should be tiered schools, all funded in relation to how many students they have. One school for gifted students, one for second, … down to “schools” that teach vocations, then “schools” where students play around and see therapists, both for students who aren’t learning even with an IEP.

This is roughly what some European countries like Germany do. Although unlike Germany, I think they should start earlier and allow movement up for students that show improvement.

Ultimately, no student should be educated below their level. LLMs allow a decent teacher to teach at the PhD level (and IME most teachers are decent, because most become teachers out of passion).

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#510

Post by randusername »

bgc wrote: post #230
randusername wrote: post #217

> We now observe preparation gaps so severe that instructors must reteach middle-school mathematics while simultaneously teaching the material students need for sciences, engineering, economics, and other quantitatively demanding fields I was annoyed to not find specifics. I would be surprised if the K12 school board and university STEM professors are in agreement about what middle school mathematics is. Trig comes t…

The November report mentioned in the article goes into (disturbing) details: https://senate.ucsd.edu/media/740347/sawg-report-on-admissio...

> To address the large number of underprepared students, the Mathematics Department redesigned Math 2 for Fall 2024 to focus entirely on elementary and middle school Common Core math subjects (grades 1-8)

ouch

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