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I'm going back to writing code by hand

blog.k10s.dev

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Re: I'm going back to writing code by hand

#501

Post by pydry »

dyauspitr wrote: post #486
baddash wrote: post #76

I've set a few rules for working with coding agents: 1. If I use a coding agent to generate code, it should be something I am absolutely confident I can code correctly myself given the time (gun to my head test). 2. If it isn't, I can't move on until I completely understand what it is that has been generated, such that I would be able to recreate it myself. 3. I can create debt (I believe this is being called Cogniti…

You’re going to be the least productive developer in any work setting from this point on. There are people checking in 50k lines of solid TDD verified, non bloat, instrument performance checked feature code per day. Your 200 lines isn’t going to cut it for very long.

I dont believe this for one second.

There ought to be entire sets of teams of devs replaced by one guy if this the case.

There ought to be popular open source projects suddenly being improved at 10x previous speed if it were true.

Im seeing plenty of evidence of slop being churned out fast, often creating work for others in the process.

I keep reading all over social media about these "hypercharged 10x AI devs".

But, I see literally zero evidence of their existence beyond a series of comments on internet forums of "trust me bro".

Re: I'm going back to writing code by hand

#502

Post by Forgeties79 »

black_knight wrote: post #288
sirwhinesalot wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is actually what I do. I'm extremely picky about the code and force the LLM to rewrite it 1000x times until it is basically exactly what I want. You might be wondering what is the point when it would be faster for me to just write the code myself? I have ADHD and for whatever reason telling the LLM what to do instead of doing it myself bypasses the task avoidance patterns and/or focus problems I tend to suffer f…

I have used LLMs a couple of times to get started on something. I don’t have ADHD, so this is not a regular occurrence for me. But when I have tried this, I have always found the LLM solution so horrible that it instantly inspired me to do it myself. So, in that sense it worked, I got unstuck, but no LLM garbage makes it into the project.

That’s how I use it for writing. I am looking for alternate wording/phrases that I usually don’t use (language habits), alternate takes of any quality just to get myself thinking along different lines, etc.

Rarely do I use what the tool actually spits out. I just use it as a sounding board, like I’m chatting with a (very noob) writer. It doesn’t make me much faster but it helps me break through when I just can’t get words down.

Re: I'm going back to writing code by hand

#503

Post by nathan_compton »

perarneng wrote: post #256
pron wrote: post #192

Yep. The only people I've heard saying that generated code is fine are those who don't read it. The problem is that the mitigations offered in the article also don't work for long. When designing a system or a component we have ideas that form invariants. Sometimes the invariant is big, like a certain grand architecture, and sometimes it’s small, like the selection of a data structure. You can tell the agent what the…

If you know how to write good code you can force AI to write good code with various techniques. It's 100% doable. You just need to figure out the problems AI has and find solutions to make it easier for it. Ex: extremely small contexts Modularize to modules with clear boundaries and only allow the AI to work within those boundaries. Make modules pure from IO so they are easily testable. Hide modules behind interfaces…

To me it feels like controlling a power tool. These things have a sort of momentum to them, because they do stuff so fast. It's easy to let the tool get out of hand.

Re: I'm going back to writing code by hand

#504

Post by abustamam »

ModernMech wrote: post #433
abustamam wrote: post #422

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LLMs can learn, just not the same way that juniors do. When an LLM does something wrong you can always update it's rules or skills to not make that mistake again. Or you can utilize a subagent whose sole purpose is to review code to prevent that mistake. Lots of ways you can improve LLMs over time. Of course if you don't provide that feedback loop, no learning happens. I guess the same could be said of a junior, thou…

Building larger systems of accountability isn't usually what people mean by learning. And besides, if telling an LLM not to do something were actually reliable, then LLMs would be a lot more useful than they are. And even if that were reliable, then you're just reinventing expert systems, which didn't work.

I'm not sure the point of contention is whether or not an arbitrary language model is capable of understanding new concepts and not make the same mistake again, as it is being used.

When people compare LLMs to juniors it's "can I have it do something pretty brain numbing, and when it makes mistakes can I invest time into preventing that from happening again, either systemically or via training?"

IME this is true for LLMs, at least in how my team has been utilizing them. This doesn't make juniors worthless, as they can be useful for things that LLMs aren't good at.

Re: I'm going back to writing code by hand

#505

Post by estearum »

tuetuopay wrote: post #469
estearum wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For now, but obviously they're becoming (effectively) more and more similar to the former every day.

They’re not, and will never be in their current form and architecture. Compilers are mechanical and engineered to produce a correct output. A compiler emitting incorrect machine code is exceedingly rare, and considered a bug. They have heuristics and probabilities in them, but those are to pick between a set of known-good outputs. An AI is a bag of weights outputting a probability of the most plausible token that fol…

Question: What do you think the word "effectively" means in the comment above?

Re: I'm going back to writing code by hand

#506

Post by marginalia_nu »

baddash wrote: post #431
marginalia_nu wrote: post #428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Build something people want. Tired point, but it really is true. People will throw money at you if you do.

ok, I kind of knew that already LOL, but I don't have any questions that are more specific so I can't really complain. just gotta get after it i guess.

Yeah I don't know if there is such a thing as good advice in this regard, except the stuff that everyone is saying.

I guess "build something you want", the Temu-bought knockoff of the previous advice. It's not quite as bad advice as it sounds, as it's at least some validation of an idea, and much easier than playing 17D chess trying to predict the zeitgeist.

The luck surface area[1] also isn't quite as talked about as it should, but a good mental model if you're seeking serendipitous life-changing outcomes that I can get behind.

[1] https://www.codusoperandi.com/posts/increasing-your-luck-sur...

Re: I'm going back to writing code by hand

#507

Post by dkersten »

pron wrote: post #192

Yep. The only people I've heard saying that generated code is fine are those who don't read it. The problem is that the mitigations offered in the article also don't work for long. When designing a system or a component we have ideas that form invariants. Sometimes the invariant is big, like a certain grand architecture, and sometimes it’s small, like the selection of a data structure. You can tell the agent what the…

> eventually, you'll want to add a feature that clashes with that invariant

I find this to be a big problem with spec driven development: no spec survives the real world, some invariant that was in the spec will inevitably turn out to be wrong, no matter how much time you spend researching and designing the spec.

When I as a human hit this during development, I can take a step back and think it through, and decide oh yes, the invariant is wrong and needs to be thought through again, and the impact of changing it needs to be assessed. Then I can design around it. Sometimes that means a substantial change in design, sometimes not, but in all times the resulting software is better for it: an unknown has been uncovered, something new has been learned.

When this happens to AI, it keeps churning on it until it manages to hack a solution together, under the potentially wrong assumptions, design, or invariant. It doesn’t have the insight to step back and holistically reevaluate.

At least, that’s been my experience working with AI. I think we can improve its ability to handle these situations, through good workflows and verification, but it’s not something that comes natural to AI and not something Claude code or whatever support out of the box and it’s got its limits.

Re: I'm going back to writing code by hand

#508

Post by dkersten »

bigstrat2003 wrote: post #489
IdiotSavage wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, basically you need to micro-manage it. Where are your 10x gains now? And is it fun to work like that?

The 10x gains don't exist. Anyone with a modicum of programming skill and hype resistance has been saying this for a while.

Sure they do: it’s easy to get 10x gains if you were only producing 0.1x before.

Re: I'm going back to writing code by hand

#509

Post by smj-edison »

pron wrote: post #192

Yep. The only people I've heard saying that generated code is fine are those who don't read it. The problem is that the mitigations offered in the article also don't work for long. When designing a system or a component we have ideas that form invariants. Sometimes the invariant is big, like a certain grand architecture, and sometimes it’s small, like the selection of a data structure. You can tell the agent what the…

And not only do you need to read the output of the code, but you need to write code, at least in my experience. I've had a quirky architecture pattern that I've been using for about 2 months now, and every time I use it I've felt slightly unsettled. I finally had a realization last night that it's not a good abstraction and how to divide it better. But, I don't feel that pain nearly as acutely when I have an LLM generate my code, so it's taken me longer to register that there is an issue, and also how to address it.

Ancillary parts I don't mind generating, but for core features I still need to be actively writing most of the time.

Re: I'm going back to writing code by hand

#510

Post by dkersten »

bigstrat2003 wrote: post #492
mountainriver wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you not review it?

You can review it, but that negates any productivity gains from using the LLM in the first place.

Agreed. Reviewing code takes so much longer and is far more exhausting than writing it, and you still don’t understand the logic as well or intuitively as you would if you write it.
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