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Removable batteries in smartphones will be mandatory in the EU starting in 2027

ecopv-eu.com

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Re: Removable batteries in smartphones will be mandatory in the EU starting in 2027

#501

Post by protimewaster »

cmiles8 wrote: post #422
protimewaster wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Didn't they remove many of the exemptions in the final, adopted bill?

Not really… the rules were heavily influenced by big tech in a way that basically exempts many devices. For example iPhone 15 onwards already meets the defined standard and thus doesn’t need a user replaceable battery. So the headline is misleading. Removable batteries aren’t mandatory. They’re only mandatory if the battery fails to meet certain performance standards.

Based on other comments, there are apparently two separate sets of rules. One of them has exceptions and supplies specifically to phones and tablets, and one of them doesn't have any exceptions and applies more generally.

Re: Removable batteries in smartphones will be mandatory in the EU starting in 2027

#502

Post by protimewaster »

criddell wrote: post #476
protimewaster wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does, but, in the previous HN discussion, there was a link to the what was reportedly the adopted version of the bill, and those exemptions were gone from the text.

Somebody pointed me to the latest version of the act and it does have the 80% after 1000 charges text. https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A... This is the text: > the battery endurance in cycles achieves a minimum of 1 000 full charge cycles and after 1 000 full charge cycles the battery has, in a fully charged state, a remaining capacity of at least 80 % of the rated capacity;

Another user pointed out that there are actually two sets of rules. There's a general one that doesn't have the exemptions, and a tablet and phone specific one that does.

It's not clear to me which takes precedence, though, as it sounds like the wording of the phone and tablet-specific rules leaves open the possibility that it can be made more strict by other sets of rules.

Re: Removable batteries in smartphones will be mandatory in the EU starting in 2027

#503

Post by tracker1 »

chroma wrote: post #418
tracker1 wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That assumes that the market itself is actually "free" and consistent and that there are no bad actors in the mix, and upstarts are allowed to freely start and compete. Given the regulations in the space that is emphatically not so. Incumbents will remove and enshitify a number of features in order to maximize returns... Your new clothes dryer has a 10 year mechanical warranty.. but the control board isn't covered, w…

Aren’t newer washers/dryers full of electronics because of laws mandating higher efficiency? My parents have an old Maytag washer that uses around 30 gallons per load while my washer uses less than 8. I know Speed Queen makes dumb laundry machines, but at least one of their models was banned for residential sale by the Department of Energy. They ended up figuring out a workaround by gimping the default cleaning mode…

I'm mostly with you.. my hope is to see more options with swapable batteries... I used to keep one on the charger and the other in my phone, then just swap them out when I leave the house. Not any time recently, but up until android/ios became pretty common.

Re: Removable batteries in smartphones will be mandatory in the EU starting in 2027

#504

Post by drfloyd51 »

eqvinox wrote: post #433
wmf wrote: post #7

There's an exception for batteries that "retain at least 80% of its original capacity after 1,000 charge cycles." Coincidentally, iPhones and probably other flagships already qualify for this exception.

JFTR: achieving that capacity retention is a question of charge settings. Pretty much any Lithium ion battery can achieve it if you don't charge it to the absolute maximum possible each time. It's quite simple. While you can charge a "good old" Lithium ion battery to 4.2V, you already start getting slow degradation at that point. Charging it to 4.1V or 4.05V massively reduces that. But at the same time, those 100 or…

4.05V is 94% of 4.2V. Does that translate to having 94% capacity longer. For a total capacity over time greater than maxing to 100% with an 20% falloff?

Re: Removable batteries in smartphones will be mandatory in the EU starting in 2027

#505

Post by drfloyd51 »

Kirby64 wrote: post #496
in_cahoots wrote: post #481

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the bill defines a charge cycle as 100->0->100 then the restriction should be more meaningful right? Manufacturers would have to ship a larger battery and cap its capacity to get the same lifespan.

100% and 0% are essentially arbitrary, though. That’s the point. What is 100% for a battery? 4.1V? 4.4V? What’s 0%? 3.0V? 2.5V? Lower?

And to add to the confusion, the display reads 100% of the current capacity. 100% of 80%.

Re: Removable batteries in smartphones will be mandatory in the EU starting in 2027

#506

Post by Kirby64 »

drfloyd51 wrote: post #505
Kirby64 wrote: post #496

Earlier quoted context omitted.

100% and 0% are essentially arbitrary, though. That’s the point. What is 100% for a battery? 4.1V? 4.4V? What’s 0%? 3.0V? 2.5V? Lower?

And to add to the confusion, the display reads 100% of the current capacity. 100% of 80%.

Irrelevant for state of charge, though. My point is you can define 0 and 100 as specific voltages and arbitrarily make the capacity larger or smaller. LG was notorious for having the top level charge be unusually high for the time (4.45V or something) which meant they had amazing battery life when new, but quickly fell off a cliff as they aged rapidly.

Re: Removable batteries in smartphones will be mandatory in the EU starting in 2027

#507

Post by briansm »

drfloyd51 wrote: post #504
eqvinox wrote: post #433

Earlier quoted context omitted.

JFTR: achieving that capacity retention is a question of charge settings. Pretty much any Lithium ion battery can achieve it if you don't charge it to the absolute maximum possible each time. It's quite simple. While you can charge a "good old" Lithium ion battery to 4.2V, you already start getting slow degradation at that point. Charging it to 4.1V or 4.05V massively reduces that. But at the same time, those 100 or…

4.05V is 94% of 4.2V. Does that translate to having 94% capacity longer. For a total capacity over time greater than maxing to 100% with an 20% falloff?

You are assuming that a battery is full at 4.2V and empty at 0V. In practice a Lithium Ion battery is empty at 3V. You are also assuming the relationship between capacity and voltage is linear - it is not.

Re: Removable batteries in smartphones will be mandatory in the EU starting in 2027

#508

Post by thewavelength »

tgsovlerkhgsel wrote: post #329
thewavelength wrote: post #20

I just called the shop to replace the perfectly fine e-Call battery in my soon four year old Hyundai car. 250€ to change a battery that has a ten year lifespan. I am not allowed to replace it on my own as it would invalidate the five year long guarantee provided by the manufacturer (not the one by law). Why is this stuff not considered as well? Also curious whether the "specialized devices" exemptions are AND require…

Why are you replacing it if it is perfectly fine?

Because I lose the manufacturer-provided five-year-guarantee if I don't.

Re: Removable batteries in smartphones will be mandatory in the EU starting in 2027

#509

Post by thewavelength »

jorams wrote: post #149
thewavelength wrote: post #20

I just called the shop to replace the perfectly fine e-Call battery in my soon four year old Hyundai car. 250€ to change a battery that has a ten year lifespan. I am not allowed to replace it on my own as it would invalidate the five year long guarantee provided by the manufacturer (not the one by law). Why is this stuff not considered as well? Also curious whether the "specialized devices" exemptions are AND require…

> I am not allowed to replace it on my own as it would invalidate the five year long guarantee provided by the manufacturer. Why is this stuff not considered as well? They're the ones paying for repairs, so it doesn't seem that unreasonable? That said: If you can prove the car is being maintained according to the manufacturer's specifications they can't require you to go to a brand dealership. That's just not necessa…

TIL. Thanks for letting me know.

Re: Removable batteries in smartphones will be mandatory in the EU starting in 2027

#510

Post by d-man »

eqvinox wrote: post #433
wmf wrote: post #7

There's an exception for batteries that "retain at least 80% of its original capacity after 1,000 charge cycles." Coincidentally, iPhones and probably other flagships already qualify for this exception.

JFTR: achieving that capacity retention is a question of charge settings. Pretty much any Lithium ion battery can achieve it if you don't charge it to the absolute maximum possible each time. It's quite simple. While you can charge a "good old" Lithium ion battery to 4.2V, you already start getting slow degradation at that point. Charging it to 4.1V or 4.05V massively reduces that. But at the same time, those 100 or…

Every 10% you don’t charge roughly doubles your battery life, scroll down to “The 80% Question”. This applies to Apple batteries, but I suspect most other recent battery are in the same ballpark.

https://randsinrepose.com/guides/apple-charging/apple-chargi...

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