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Mercedes-Benz commits to bringing back physical buttons

drive.com.au

501–510 of 523 posts

Re: Mercedes-Benz commits to bringing back physical buttons

#501
There is a happy medium somewhere. I've seen cars with a hundred buttons, and that is just as big a disaster as a touchscreen. A good solution would be hybrid -- the things you use regularly while driving should be tactile buttons and knobs that you can hopefully recognize without having to look at them. There should be a very limited number of these controls; radio & climate being the obvious ones. The rest of the customizable features and such can be in a touchscreen and then only accessible when parked.

Re: Mercedes-Benz commits to bringing back physical buttons

#502

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“I acknowledge I'm a below average driver” >Your search did not match any documents | Need help? Check out other tips for searching on Google. (Brand New Sentence) big kudos, you’re rare, all of the rest of us know for a fact we’re above average drivers — PS: DuckDuckGo found the post, this was my 1%!!! (DDG beat Google, less than a weekly occurrence!)

> all of the rest of us know for a fact we’re above average drivers The boring reality is that the vast majority of us are average, and average turns out to be pretty safe. The people causing multiple at-fault wrecks are not merely below average, they are way below average.

Sometimes wonder if all speed trap cops would make us safer if they mostly ignored speeding, drove unmarked cars, and all day long nabbed tailgaters making multiple aggressive lane changes.

That still leaves the bad or distracted drivers, but thankfully much of the time a little extra brakepad is enough to keep a defensive driver out of the body shop.

Re: Mercedes-Benz commits to bringing back physical buttons

#503
post #440

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with everything you said, but I believe the pump shroud is for faster engine warmup, not saving a fraction of a horsepower. Cold engines run rich, producing more hydrocarbon emissions, and the cold startup phase emissions are heavily penalized. There’s also additional wear on the engine due to cold oil and looser tolerances, which affects nearly every aspect of the engine.

It might be, yeah. But why wouldn't the thermostat solve that problem, since it won't let water through the rad? And wouldn't the faster warmup come at the expense of the heater taking longer? If you really wanted to not run the coolant pump until you'd got the engine a little warmer I would have thought a magnetic clutch like an aircon compressor would have been better. Although these days, maybe even an electric pu…

The thermostat bypasses the radiator when cold, but not the engine. The coolant has to be allowed to flow in order for the hot coolant to fully open the thermostat. Being electronically controlled means there just needs to be a sensor near a known hot spot to trigger flow from the pump.

I’m not familiar with the impeller shroud you mentioned, but I looked it up and the description seems to agree: “This pump includes the shroud and control valve to restrict flow while the engine heats up.”

Whether or not it affects the time required for the heater core to be operational would depend on how they decided to route it, and if the solenoid offers variable positioning. I imagine it is variable, otherwise they’d create thermal shock every time the engine heated up and the pump suddenly started flowing colder coolant through the block, so technically it should be possible to fully replicate the general functioning of the thermostat and heater core. Now that I think about it, it’s most certainly variable and it’s why they didn’t go with a clutch system.

Re: Mercedes-Benz commits to bringing back physical buttons

#504
post #275

I think they should distinguish between controls and settings. Settings are great on a touchscreen. A wide variety of options, easily navigated to and explained. They suck on physical buttons, it ends up being like setting the time on a VCR. Controls on the other hand deserve physical buttons. Or levers. or dials/knobs/spinners. It should depend on muscle memory, and the type of control. I also thing driving status s…

I used to drive a 2001 S-class ... easily counted nearly 100 physical buttons within reach of the driver. In theory you could use the 10-digit keypad like an old flip phone to enter a physical address into the navigation, but is that really what people want to go back to?

Was that the system that required you enter the address backward? Like you couldn't navigate to 123 Alder Street, Springfield, East Virgina, but instead, you had to enter East Virginia, then Springfield, then Alder Street, then 123?

I had a family member who loved Mercedes cars, but I couldn't stand them and am pretty sure that all of their user interface ideas were tested with focus groups to make sure they only went with the worst ideas possible.

Re: Mercedes-Benz commits to bringing back physical buttons

#505
post #492

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now it's reminding me more of the E36 I used to drive. Dual-zone auto temperature control failed? Heat still works, at least -- the "all the way on" position for the driver's side temperature knob was not a potentiometer, but was instead simple switch that opened the valves. Not perfect, but not complete failure: Good enough to get from A to B without the window fogging or freezing in the cold. But those manifold, so…

Nice! DIN 3017A are the ones! They had a little Benz star stamped on each one. The E36 is another one of those legendary chassis where they basically just got it right. I've looked at a few of them over the years but they were all so beat up that I couldn't justify buying. Some day when it finally rots out or the transmission shreds itself or something I will throw the OM606 from my W210 into a better car.. a mechani…

I still have the E36. One of these days when I have time and money (hah) I'll see if there's anything left underneath ("it was fine when parked!"), and go about putting different spinny-bits into it.

I'm in a part of the States where German cars are unusual and I never got a taste for diesel, so that tends to lean towards something like a Chevy LS1 and some manner of appropriate manual gearbox as being KISS.

It's a common-enough swap that the questions have all been answered for quite a long time now, and the iron block LS motors aren't too dissimilar in weight from the BMW straight-6 despite having >twice the displacement. That should help keep the handling proper without getting too nuts.

The joy of the OM606 is mostly that it's too simple to fail, isn't it? I think that'd be worth getting into for someone who knows how they tick (but that person isn't me).

And yeah, hose clamps. The BMW ones had little BMW roundels on them, and the dumb ones we use domestically are apparently built to some UPC standard. One is clearly better than the other, but both are superior to whatever Freightliner put on this dude's truck: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfVqr0EkLXA& [language]

Re: Mercedes-Benz commits to bringing back physical buttons

#506

But do you have to look at the display to tell what the buttons and knobs are doing. If you have, say, a HVAC fan speed knob with mechanical stops at the low and high end, and a detent, you never have to look at it. If you have an increase/decrease switch, you may need to look at the display to find out what you're doing. In a car, this means head-down time, eyes off the road. I have a Black and Decker branded humidi…

You did buy it though

It's impossible to completely evaluate a product before buying. That's why it's important to shame once you have enough experience with it

Re: Mercedes-Benz commits to bringing back physical buttons

#507
post #505

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nice! DIN 3017A are the ones! They had a little Benz star stamped on each one. The E36 is another one of those legendary chassis where they basically just got it right. I've looked at a few of them over the years but they were all so beat up that I couldn't justify buying. Some day when it finally rots out or the transmission shreds itself or something I will throw the OM606 from my W210 into a better car.. a mechani…

I still have the E36. One of these days when I have time and money (hah) I'll see if there's anything left underneath ("it was fine when parked!"), and go about putting different spinny-bits into it. I'm in a part of the States where German cars are unusual and I never got a taste for diesel, so that tends to lean towards something like a Chevy LS1 and some manner of appropriate manual gearbox as being KISS. It's a c…

An OM606 is just a very stout engine. It's a 6cyl inline 3.0L indirect injected diesel building in some respects on the tradition of its predecessors the OM61x and OM603. It has a basically indestructible bottom end, an efficient 24 valve DOHC head, an inline Bosch M-type injection pump, and it can be pretty easily and inexpensively made to reliably put out enormous HP and torque that melts tires and shreds drivetrains. People call it the "diesel 2JZ" because it'll rev like mad. In stock form it's no slouch but when you put the fuel and air to it (and some stiffer exhaust valve springs to combat valve float) it turns into an absolute fire breathing monster. But a pretty reliable one. It's also a fairly light engine as far as diesels go, comparable to an LS1, various BMW 6cyl engines, Benz M104, etc. Being indirect injected it's not as efficient as a direct injection engine, but a lot more forgiving from a tuning and fuel quality standpoint. Unlike DI engines, IDI engines require no modifications to injection nozzles even when pushing vastly more fuel.

Another thing is that converting one from a computer controlled engine to a fully mechanical engine is very simple. You just remove the Bosch EDC pump and install a mechanical pump from an OM603. The only major difference is in the governor. The EDC pump is "Electronic Diesel Control" or something to that effect--it has an electrically controlled actuator and an ECU and the mechanical pump has a flyweight governor like all the other mechanical pumps, steam locomotives, etc. That makes it attractive for swapping into older vehicles, you can do a brain transplant and turn it into a simple 1 wire engine in like an hour.

The problems with a heavily boosted high output OM606 (or any other diesel) aren't power or torque--you'll get a ton. It's making that power and torque in a way you can actually use, and that won't make obnoxious clouds of black smoke. Stock it makes something like 175hp/240ft*lb, which isn't bad at all. That can be pushed to a bit over 200hp on stock pump internals, or as high as you want (600hp+) with a purpose-built injection pump with larger pumping elements. But you have to feed it enough air to keep exhaust temperatures and smoke under control and that's the problem--big turbo means no boost until high RPM which is fairly limiting from the standpoint of like actually doing car stuff.

Personally, I don't really care about making huge amounts of top end power, I'd rather have a driveable engine. Stock power and torque output--or at least that which is reliably achievable with a stock pump and maybe an HX30 to flow a little more air more efficiently--is plenty. The thing that rocks about the OM606 is it'll go like that for 500k miles with (probably) just routine oil changes. And you'll get like 28-32+mpg the whole time (depending ofc on what you swap it into).

So all that is to say it's kind of the pinnacle of a particular stage of automotive diesel technology--I think it might be the "most modern" IDI diesel ever made. It's too bad the car they surrounded it with is such a pile of hot garbage.

I bet an LS1 E36 would be sick too.

EDIT: lmao just watched the Freightliner video. The one thing on an OM606 that is remotely like that is the overcomplicated fuel tubing on EDC-pumped engines. It has these dogshit plastic push connectors with orings, and some crazy convoluted fuel plumbing through a shutoff valve which basically doesn't do anything useful. The shutoff valve and each end of like a half dozen of these little plastic fuel tubes has o-rings in it which eventually fail and leak fuel everywhere. It's a bit ridiculously overengineered and solves a problem that isn't a big deal--normally to shut off a diesel you just pull the rack all the way back on the injection pump and wait for it to die. For some reason, on the EDC pumps when it does this the RPMs increase for a little bit before it dies. That's what this other electronic solenoid valve solves--by pinching off the fuel upstream of the IP at the same time as pulling the rack back this little RPM blip doesn't happen. But it comes at a terrible plumbing cost. Happily if you use Viton o-rings you only need to change them every 20 years or so. My car is currently disassembled because I'm doing that now :D. This whole system can be deleted if you don't care about the RPMs increasing a little bit when you shut the engine off, or if you do a mechanical brain transplant.

EDIT AGAIN: Ah, one more thing! I forgot about the glow plugs. So.. it's an aluminum head engine, with steel pencil-style glow-plugs screwed into it. These surface inside each precombustion chamber where they glow red hot during the start cycle. This helps atomize the fuel in the cold engine and makes it go brr. Once the engine has been running for a few seconds they shut off, because there's enough residual heat in the prechambers to atomize the fuel. Anyway, because you have steel parts threaded into aluminum parts in the presence of salt and road grime and who knows what on the outside of the head--not to mention the heat and carbon buildup on the inside--this is a recipe for a sticky situation. The torque spec for these things is I believe 27N*m which is not a lot and if you torque them anywhere past 40N*m they're very likely to snap. When one of these little fuckers breaks off in the head it's a very, very bad day. If you're exceptionally lucky it's just an entire day or more of uncomfortable contortions with an angle drill, some tapping, some helicoils, some loctite. But more probably the head is coming off and going to the machine shop. In which case probably you're gonna also want to deck the block.. and at that point why stop there? Best to just do a full rebuild. So, you do not want to break off one of those glowplugs in the head. So... what do you do about that? The answer has a part number: A 001 989 42 51 10. I don't know what this stuff is made out of but I assume it must be incredibly toxic. It's some kind of anti-seize lubricant that is bright white when you put it on the glowplug, and is still bright white when you remove the glowplug a year later. It spent 10000 miles millimeters away from the combustion chamber of a diesel engine and didn't degrade at all. There's also a special reamer tool which also has a part number but I don't have it in front of me. Every year I remove all the glowplugs, clean them, ream and clean the holes, re-apply the anti-seize, and reinstall them. Just to make sure one never gets stuck in the unlikely event I have to replace it.

Re: Mercedes-Benz commits to bringing back physical buttons

#508
post #503

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It might be, yeah. But why wouldn't the thermostat solve that problem, since it won't let water through the rad? And wouldn't the faster warmup come at the expense of the heater taking longer? If you really wanted to not run the coolant pump until you'd got the engine a little warmer I would have thought a magnetic clutch like an aircon compressor would have been better. Although these days, maybe even an electric pu…

The thermostat bypasses the radiator when cold, but not the engine. The coolant has to be allowed to flow in order for the hot coolant to fully open the thermostat. Being electronically controlled means there just needs to be a sensor near a known hot spot to trigger flow from the pump. I’m not familiar with the impeller shroud you mentioned, but I looked it up and the description seems to agree: “This pump includes…

It's not variable, it just pulls in and out with a solenoid, either fully surrounding the pump or fully retracted.

I hadn't thought about the thermal shock thing but I did wonder how it could possibly help the coolant warm up if it's not circulating at least through the block. The engine doesn't warm up evenly.

Re: Mercedes-Benz commits to bringing back physical buttons

#509
post #449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, newest Polo seems to have physical controls now. By all models released after their statement two and half years ago came with shitty capacitive clusters.

Which models are these? Per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_ID._series the only one released since (before the 2026 models) is the ID.7 Tourer, which does have buttons.

The original statement was in 2023, so starting from 2024:

Id.5 2024 - touch capacitive buttons (even worse than display buttons)

Id.7 2024 - touch capacitive buttons

Id.4 2024 - touch capacitive buttons

Id.3 2024 - touch capacitive buttons

Id.Buzzzzzz 2024 - touch capacitive buttons

Only models starting in 2026 like Id.Polo and Id.3 Neo seems to have real buttons back again.

Re: Mercedes-Benz commits to bringing back physical buttons

#510
post #503

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thermostat bypasses the radiator when cold, but not the engine. The coolant has to be allowed to flow in order for the hot coolant to fully open the thermostat. Being electronically controlled means there just needs to be a sensor near a known hot spot to trigger flow from the pump. I’m not familiar with the impeller shroud you mentioned, but I looked it up and the description seems to agree: “This pump includes…

It's not variable, it just pulls in and out with a solenoid, either fully surrounding the pump or fully retracted. I hadn't thought about the thermal shock thing but I did wonder how it could possibly help the coolant warm up if it's not circulating at least through the block. The engine doesn't warm up evenly.

Oh wow, it’s upsetting that it’s not variable. The total system might hold 2x (or more) of the amount of coolant in the engine water jacket. When the coolant around the engine gets up to ~200 degrees and the pump suddenly snaps to 100% it’s going to flood the engine with coolant at ambient temperature. Imagine getting the engine up to operating temperature then dropping it into a swimming pool; even in the kitchen you find out that’s what causes pans to warp and glassware to shatter, and the engine is just a funny shaped pan with bolts.

My only other guess is that it’s not 100% on/off, like maybe a bit is still allowed to flow when “off”, but then it would still need to bring the entire coolant mass up to temperature so I’m not sure how that would be a benefit for faster warmup. Either there’s some clever engineering I’m not seeing, or you’re buying a few points of regulatory compliance for them by needing to replace head bolts and gaskets sooner.

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