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Ghostty is leaving GitHub

mitchellh.com

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Re: Ghostty is leaving GitHub

#501

Post by eddythompson80 »

preisschild wrote: post #439
jonpalmisc wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh, I kinda hope not. Codeberg's latency even for just browsing is pretty bad (in my experience) and also is only sporting a single 9 of uptime [1]. I wish Codeberg the best, but I thought it was a questionable choice for Zig and feel similarly for Ghostty—doesn't seem like a strict improvement. [1] https://status.codeberg.eu/status/codeberg

Tbf its free software and the quality will go up the more people are using it and contributing.

I haven’t really found that free services scale the same way. It’s hard for the “open source community” to contribute and improve the quality of bottlenecks that are only encountered by one operator.

When you take OSS projects that scale well, say Linux, Postgres, Kafka, redis, etc. they either scale up (Linux) which is arguable easier, or were able to scale out because there are thousands, if not millions, that have massive deployments pushing them to their limits.

Unless there is some sort of secure way to “open source” operational data for codeberg, or many others running huge deployments of Forgejo I don’t see it being very effective.

I do see Google having another go at code hosting though.

Re: Ghostty is leaving GitHub

#502

Post by godelski »

idan wrote: post #415
margalabargala wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "GitHub only gets better if people who give a shit stick around to make it better" This is true but misleading. Unfortunately. It is a true statement for developers working in GitHub at Microsoft. It's not a true statement for users. There is no avenue by which you make GitHub better by continuing to use it as it has been.

I do work at GitHub. I shared the above as a nuanced "yes and" to the pain that Mitchell is feeling. In the same way that Mastodon didn't replace Twitter even when Twitter went to shit, I don't believe in the various GitHub alternatives becoming a broadly-used thing. Maybe we'll end up with more GitHub-alikes like Codeberg, mabye we'll end up with some communities adopting novel forges like Tangled and Forgejo. But i…

The problem is that from the outside it seems like Microsoft no longer cares about the product. So much so that "the product" has become "shareholders"[0].

We've just been moving into a world where metric hacking is the desired outcome, not an outcome to try to avoid. These companies are only surviving because of their monopoly statuses. Because of momentum. It's a powerful force. It's the reason Twitter still is around. The reason Facebook is still around. But them being around doesn't mean they're good. It doesn't mean they're useful. It doesn't mean it is a good product. It doesn't mean the users like it. It just means people are used to the way things are and they aren't angry enough to leave for something else. But these companies are actively creating friction for users, daring them to leave, gouging them for everything they can. FFS Microsoft is the largest contributor (even more than Valve) to creating "the year of linux". Sure, it'll never have M$FT's market share, but it sure is eating into their revenue.

We've all lost sight of what made software so powerful in the first place. Why it became so successful and changed the world. We used to ship good products that help people, make their lives better, and make lots of money in the process. Now, I think all that anyone cares about is the last part. Now we're actively being hostile to those that make the systems better. And that system is fucked up and will destroy itself. That's not a good thing, because it does a lot of damage along the way. It is a system of extreme myopia.

In the last 5 years I'd argue that most software has made my life harder and more complex, not easier. There are definitely exceptions to this (ghostty being a great example), but there is a strong trend. I know I'm not alone in this feeling and I think we're getting to a point where a lot of people are no longer willing to dismiss their own gripes. This is not a good sign...

I'm glad you're optimistic. I do hope things can change. And my frustration is not directed at you. I really do want you to be right and I really do want to see change come from the inside. But I do not think those leading the companies now have any foresight. To be honest, I'm not even sure there's anyone at the wheel. It feels like we've just let the market forces steer the ship. If the currents steer the ship, then there's no captain, regardless of who claims the title. Frankly, I don't want to be on a ship without a captain, but here we are.

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZFTaEenaHM

Re: Ghostty is leaving GitHub

#503

Post by c-hendricks »

paulryanrogers wrote: post #393
sho_hn wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Github has always been non-free software hosted by someone else, and run according to its owners' rules and for its owners' benefit, not ultimately the end user. This was true in 2008 and it's true today. Yup. At KDE we never seriously considered GitHub. We always built our own git infra, and eventually landed on GitLab, after banding together with Gnome and a (generous and forthcoming) GitLab to convince them to m…

GitLab cloud lost some of my projects. And it was (is?) quite slow. Props to those who can keep it running self hosted.

It's actually much faster when self hosted, even on modest hardware. And it's not _that_ bad to manage with docker (for how much it provides).

Re: Ghostty is leaving GitHub

#504

Post by theapadayo »

aforwardslash wrote: post #495

Im still waiting for... Basically anyone that has used TFS (what microsoft had/pushed before acquiring github) to do a similar post, detailing how they miss the tool original concept. I'm sitting down, don't worry about me.

> TFS (what microsoft had/pushed before acquiring github)

It's still around. It's just called Azure DevOps now. I personally think it's great for what it does.

Re: Ghostty is leaving GitHub

#506

Post by pxc »

sudb wrote: post #227
madamelic wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least it isn't Bitbucket. I think Atlassian and Microsoft are genuinely in a competition to see who can make worse software and still have customers.

At this point maybe even Azure DevOps is an improvement

As someone whose employer uses both: nope, not yet

Re: Ghostty is leaving GitHub

#507

Post by kryogen1c »

amluto wrote: post #363
idan wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Salesforce never understood Heroku. Salesforce's understanding of Heroku, if such an understanding ever existed, was wildly different than what Heroku understood it wanted to be. Benioff's penchant for buying himself a company every year did not help — "no headcount this year, we're buying Mulesoft/Quip/Tableau/Slack/$WHATEVER. And oops we spent too much money on dreamforce. Sucks that your pager rotations are burnin…

> GitHub is not perfect but I don't think it's "degraded faster" at all. It's _grown_ faster. It’s grown in a way that degraded it and that required actual effort. For example: - The fancy new diff viewer frontend that barely works. Someone wrote that code — it didn’t happen by itself. - The unbelievably buggy and slow code review frontend (which is surely related to the diff frontend) was added complexity that did n…

> It’s grown in a way that degraded it

Im an outsider and a layman, so this might be totally off base, but...

The way I hear people talking about github reliability doesnt sound like scaling problems to me. If you drive 20 miles every day but then decide to drive 2000 miles and run out of gas, thats a problem of scale. If you drive 2000 miles and your engine explodes, thats a problem of design.

Maybe their design problems are being made evident because of sudden scale, but they're still design problems.

Re: Ghostty is leaving GitHub

#508

Post by grogenaut »

margalabargala wrote: post #454
idan wrote: post #415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do work at GitHub. I shared the above as a nuanced "yes and" to the pain that Mitchell is feeling. In the same way that Mastodon didn't replace Twitter even when Twitter went to shit, I don't believe in the various GitHub alternatives becoming a broadly-used thing. Maybe we'll end up with more GitHub-alikes like Codeberg, mabye we'll end up with some communities adopting novel forges like Tangled and Forgejo. But i…

I'm glad you are optimistic. GitHub will need employees with that attitude if they're going to pull out of their current trajectory. To be clear- from a user perspective, "improving GitHub" means "restoring reliability to what it was 6 years ago". There's no killer feature that makes people stop leaving, if my PRs don't lead every third day and actions never work.

I may have my timelines wrong but I don't remember github being rock solid 5 years ago. I remember multiple outages keeping us from pulling code for go packages that were not using an enterprise dependency cache and killing multiple days of work a year for those systems. It's what I used as a forcing function to move people TO an enterprise dependency cache, and to find the few scofflaws running work code off of github.com versus enterprise.

Re: Ghostty is leaving GitHub

#509

Post by jbaber »

dannyfritz07 wrote: post #316
JuniperMesos wrote: post #36

I can appreciate Hashimoto's genuine feelings about Github, and the world of open-source software development that it opened for him and that he spent a significant chunk of his life participating in. On the other hand, I can't help but think that some of this heartbreak would have been avoidable, if only he possessed more of the Richard-Stallman-esque attitude that non-free software is inherently suspect and unethic…

I have had my eye on these technologies for a while. Embedding the issue tracker and such in your git repo. Every day these make more and more sense. - https://gitsocial.org/ - https://radicle.dev/ - https://github.com/git-bug/git-bug

Exactly this. Even though I don't use git-bug anymore, I'm still a sponsor. I desperately want an issue-tracker-in-.git to become a standard.

Issues and CI are the only lock-in. The latter is legitimate because you're using someone else's CPU, but every developer has the tooling to "git diff" and write comments if we could just agree on a format.

Re: Ghostty is leaving GitHub

#510

Post by byroot »

psadauskas wrote: post #336
devin wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If anyone reading this is curious of their own, you can go to https://api.github.com/users/YOUR_USERNAME_HERE and fetch it. My ID is just over 10,000. Crazy to think of the journey that I've had in computing since I signed up for GitHub.

Fun story about that: In Ruby 2.x, the version GitHub originally launched with, every object implemented the method `id`, which returned the object id (in 3.x, it was renamed to `object_id`). Every object had this id, ActiveRecord models, strings, floats, integers, booleans, etc. Some objects had fixed object ids, like `true.object_id #=> 20`, `false.object_id #=> 0`, `123.object_id #=> 247 (2n+1)`. The `object_id` f…

Similarly, when writing Facebook apps with Rails, when you'd hit that same bug you'd see Mark Zuckerbeg: https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=4
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