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Anonymous request-token comparisons from Opus 4.6 and Opus 4.7

tokens.billchambers.me

501–510 of 620 posts

Re: Anonymous request-token comparisons from Opus 4.6 and Opus 4.7

#501

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What open models are truly competing with both Claude Code and Opus 4.7 (xhigh) at this stage?

Spent a lot of time with "open models." None of them come close. They are benchmaxxed. But you won't hear many of the open model fans on HN admit this. The open model mentality is also just so bizarre to me. You're going to use an inferior model to save, what, a couple hundred bucks a month? Is your time really worth that little? No one working on a serious project at a serious company is downgrading their agent's in…

Glm 5.1 getting 5% on ARC-AGI 2 private is all anyone needs to know.

Re: Anonymous request-token comparisons from Opus 4.6 and Opus 4.7

#502

I'm a retired mathematician hoping to finish a second proof of a major theorem before I die. AI needs to understand my math and help me code. What I spend on AI isn't going to deplete my retirement savings. So far, Opus 4.7 seems a bit smarter than Opus 4.6 for my use case. That's my only concern. Is an $80 bottle of wine a better value than a $20 or $40 bottle of wine? Pretty much never. If there are those of us wil…

If you are doing math I'd stick with Gemini and ChatGPT. Anthropic doesn't seem interested in doing math, whereas google and OAI trade blows over it (read: are doing math specific training).

Re: Anonymous request-token comparisons from Opus 4.6 and Opus 4.7

#503
post #480

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mirrors my sentiment. Those tools seem mostly useful for a Google alternative, scaffolding tedious things, code reviewing, and acting as a fancy search. It seems that they got a grip on the "coding LLM" market and now they're starting to seek actual profit. I predict we'll keep seeing 40%+ more expensive models for a marginal performance gain from now on.

> Those tools seem mostly useful for a Google alternative, scaffolding tedious things, code reviewing, and acting as a fancy search. Just to get a sense for the rate of change, imagine if you took a survey. Compare what people said about AI tools... 3 years ago, 2 years ago, 1 year ago, 6 months ago. Then think about what is plausible that people will be saying in 3 months, 6 months, 9 months ... Moving the goalposts…

Your quoted example to make that point isn't particularly convincing, IMO. Cursor came out in 2023 and everything on that list would be a typical use case, plus ChatGPT for the search replacement.

Of course, it wasn't nearly as effective back then compared to current SOTA models, but none of those are hard to imagine someone recommending Cursor for anytime in 2024 or later.

If OP instead said something like one shotting an entire line of business app with 10k LoC I would agree with your reminder about perspective. But it feels somewhat hype-y to say that goal posts are being moved "monthly" when most of their list has been possible for years.

Re: Anonymous request-token comparisons from Opus 4.6 and Opus 4.7

#504

Opus 4.6 is the main model on https://playcode.io . Not a secret, the model is the best on the world. Yet it is crazy expensive and this 35% is huge for us. $10,000 becomes $13,500. Don’t forget, anthropic tokenizer also shows way more than other providers. We have experimented a lot with GLM 5.1. It is kinda close, but with downsides: no images, max 100K adequate context size and poor text writing. However, a great…

Gemini is strong and cheap, it's 90% of 4.6 at 20% of the tokens.

Re: Anonymous request-token comparisons from Opus 4.6 and Opus 4.7

#505
post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you aware that every tool call produces output which also counts as input to the LLM?

Are you aware that a lot of model tool calls are useless and a smarter model could avoid those? Are you aware that output tokens are priced 5x higher than input tokens?

> a lot of model tool calls are useless

That’s just wrong. File reads, searches, compiler output, are the top input token consumers in my workflow. None of them can be removed. And they are the majority of my input tokens. That’s also why labs are trying to make 1M input work, and why compaction is so important to get right.

Regarding output - yes, but that wasn’t the topic in this thread. It’s just easier to argue with input tokens that price has gone up. I have a hunch the price for output will go up similarly, but can’t prove it. The jury’s out IMO: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47816960

Re: Anonymous request-token comparisons from Opus 4.6 and Opus 4.7

#506

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The most frustrating part is the quality loss caused by the forced adaptive thinking. It eats 5-10% of my Max 5x usage and churns for ten minutes, only to come back with totally untrustworthy results. It lazily hand-waves issues away in order to avoid reading my actual code and doing real reasoning work on it. Opus simply cannot be trusted if adaptive thinking is enabled.

You don't have to use adaptive thinking. It had been turned off on my main work computer. I was using a different computer on a trip and I started getting so angry at Claude for doing a bad job. I evetually figured out it was adaptive thinking and set it to "hard" and it started working again. At the time I think "hard" was the top choice. With 4.7, my computer now shows "xhard", which I assume is the equivelent sett…

/effort

Re: Anonymous request-token comparisons from Opus 4.6 and Opus 4.7

#507

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It thinks less and produces less output tokens because it has forced adaptive thinking that even API users can't disable. Same adaptive thinking that was causing quality issues in Opus 4.6 not even two weeks ago. The one bcherny recommended that people disable because it'd sometimes allocate zero thinking tokens to the model. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47668520 People are already complaining about low quali…

> > Why are you handwaving things away though? I've got you on max effort. I even patched the system prompts to reduce this. In my experience, prompts like this one, which 1) ask for a reason behind an answer (when the model won't actually be able to provide one), 2) are somewhat standoff-ish, don't work well at all. You'll just have the model go the other way. What works much better is to tell the model to take a st…

This is frankly one of the most frustrating things about LLMs: sometimes I just want to drive it into a corner. “Why the f** did you do X when I specifically told you not to?”

It never leads to anything helpful. I don’t generally find it necessary to drive humans into a corner. I’m not sure it’s because it’s explicitly not a human so I don’t feel bad for it, though I think it’s more the fact that it’s always so bland and is entirely unable to respond to a slight bit of negative sentiment (both in terms of genuinely not being able to exert more effort into getting it right when someone is frustrated with it, but also in that it is always equally nonchalant and inflexible).

Re: Anonymous request-token comparisons from Opus 4.6 and Opus 4.7

#508

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What open models are truly competing with both Claude Code and Opus 4.7 (xhigh) at this stage?

Spent a lot of time with "open models." None of them come close. They are benchmaxxed. But you won't hear many of the open model fans on HN admit this. The open model mentality is also just so bizarre to me. You're going to use an inferior model to save, what, a couple hundred bucks a month? Is your time really worth that little? No one working on a serious project at a serious company is downgrading their agent's in…

> The open model mentality is also just so bizarre to me. You're going to use an inferior model to save, what, a couple hundred bucks a month? Is your time really worth that little?

I agree that people who claim that open models are as good as claude/openai/z are lying, delusional, or not doing very much. I've tried them all, included GLM 5.1.

GLM is not bad but the hardware needed will never recoup the ROI vs just using a commercial provider through its API.

That being said, you're being reductive here. For many use cases local models offer advantages that can't obtained through a commercial API : Privacy, ownership of the entire stack, predictability. They can't be rugpulled, they can't snitch on you. They will not give you 503.

Those advantages are very valuable for things like a local assistant, as an agent, for data extraction, for translations, for games (role playing and whatnot), etc.

That being said I know that many people are like you, they don't give a second thought about privacy. They'd plug Anthropic to their brain if they could. So I understand the sentiment. I just think that you should in turn try to understand why someone would use an open model.

Re: Anonymous request-token comparisons from Opus 4.6 and Opus 4.7

#509

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a MoE model so I'd assume a cheaper MBP would simply result in some experts staying on CPU? And those would still have a sizeable fraction of the unified memory bandwidth available.

I haven’t tried this myself yet but you would still need enough non-vram ram available to the cpu to offload to cpu, right? This is a fully novice question, I have not ever tried it.

You're correct. If you don't have enough RAM for the model, it can still run but most of it will run on the CPU and be continuously reloaded from the SSD (through mmap).

A medium MoE like 35B can still achieve usable speeds in that setup, mind you, depending on what you're doing.

Re: Anonymous request-token comparisons from Opus 4.6 and Opus 4.7

#510
post #470
post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> To claim to know a company's strategy as an outsider is messy stuff. I said "it seems like". Obviously, I have no idea whether this is an intentional strategy or not and it could as well be a side effect of those things that you mentioned. Models being "worse" is the perceived effect for the end user (subjectively, it seems like the price to achieve the same results on similar tasks with Opus has been steadily incr…

>>> ... but it seems like Anthropic is going for the Tinder/casino intermittent reinforcement strategy: optimized to keep you spending tokens instead of achieving results. >> This part of the above comment strikes me as uncharitable and overconfident. And, to be blunt, presumptuous. To claim to know a company's strategy as an outsider is messy stuff. > I said "it seems like". Sorry. I take back the "presumptuous" par…

I like your style, and I appreciate you trying to get to the truth, despite us both being aware that we are engaging in persuasive writing here, so part of the rhetorical game is in what we choose to emphasize and what we choose to leave out.

> How likely do you think this is? Do you think it is more likely than the other three I mentioned?

I won't write down probability estimates, because frankly, I have no idea. Unless you are yourself a decision-maker at Anthropic, which, from what I can infer, you aren't, both of us are speculating. However, I can try to address each of your explanations at face value, because I don't think any of them makes Anthropic look any better than the explanation I provided.

> (1) One possibility is they are having capacity and/or infrastructure problems so the model performance is degraded.

As far as I understand it, scaling issues would result in increased latency or requests being dropped, not model quality being lower. However, there is a very widespread rumor that Anthropic is routing traffic to quantized models during peak times to help decrease costs. Boris Cherny, Thariq Shihipar, and others have repeatedly denied this is happening [1]. I would be more concerned if this were the actual explanation, because as a user of the Claude Code Max plan and of the API, I have the expectation that each dollar I spend buys me access to the same model without opaque routing in the background.

> (2) Another possibility is that they are not as tuned to what customers want relative to what their engineers want.

There is actually a strong case for this: the high performance on the benchmarks relative to the qualitatively low performance reported on real-world tasks after launch. I suspect quite a bit of RL training was spent optimizing for beating those benchmarks, which resulted in overfitting the model on particular kinds of tasks. I'm not claiming this is nefarious in any way or that it is something only Anthropic is guilty of doing: these benchmarks are supposed to be a good representation of general software tasks, and using them as a training ground is expected.

> (3) It is also possible they have slowed their models down due to safety concerns. To be more specific, they are erring on the side of caution (which would be consistent with their press releases about safety concerns of Mythos).

This would be the most concerning to me. I don't want to get too deeply into a political/philosophical argument, but I am very much on the other side of the e/accy vs. P(doomy) debate, and I strongly believe that keeping these tools under the control of some council of enlightened elders who claim to know what is best for humanity is ultimately futile.

If the result of the behind-the-scenes "cerebration" is an actual effort to try and slow down AI development or access, I don't have much confidence in the future of Anthropic.

I agree that there are incentives other than pure profit maximization here (I don't want to get into "my friend at Anthropic told me such and such" games, but I also believe this is the case). I'm sure there is some tension between these objectives inside Anthropic, but what is interesting is that lower model quality and maximizing user engagement could, at least in principle, align with both constraints.

[1] https://x.com/trq212/status/2043023892579766290

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