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Oracle slashes 30k jobs

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Re: Oracle slashes 30k jobs

#501

Post by wiseowise »

WalterBright wrote: post #420
wiseowise wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The one where one trip to ER can leave you on the street and students have six digit debts?

Ironically, you picked two systems that are heavily interfered with by the government. Back in the Great Depression, my great grandmother got sick and was hospitalized, and they took care of her until she passed. My grandfather did not have enough to pay the bill. The hospital told him not to worry, just pay what he could. It took him a while, but he paid the bill in full.

> Back in Great Depression

Why not civil war?

> It took him a while, but he paid the bill in full.

How long was “a while” specifically? And how much did it affect your grandfathers life?

Re: Oracle slashes 30k jobs

#502

Post by steve1977 »

giobox wrote: post #478
steve1977 wrote: post #416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was a time (around the beginnings of Mac OS X) when Java was considered a first class citizen in Mac OS X, next to Objective-C. Some NeXT products like WebObjects got ported to Java (and ran not only the iTunes backend but also things like the original Dell online store) and there was something called the Java bridge which allowed you to program Cocoa applications with Java. https://developer.apple.com/library/…

It wasn't just Apple, in the late 90s/early 2000s there was a not insignificant number of folks in business/academia who thought Java would take over the world. Windows XP also shipped with an embedded JVM for running Java apps out of the box at one stage too, just before Microsoft doubled down on c#/.NET. Along with MacOS X, Apple's Xcode IDE even had native java project support briefly in this era as well.

There was even a Microsoft Visual J++ (and later J#).

It was definitely the thing for a while. Although I remember my very first steps with Java and Swing and my primary impression was "this is so slow".

Re: Oracle slashes 30k jobs

#503

Post by tombert »

niek_pas wrote: post #475
tombert wrote: post #454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The at-will firing is just how it is in the US, but I do find it odd how accepting we've become with these corporations massively overhiring. If they have to fire twenty percent of the company, shouldn't that be a signal to investors that the people in charge are morons for overhiring thirty thousand people in the first place? Software engineers aren't cheap; assuming an average compensation of $250,000/year (which I…

Yeah, the "just how it is" part was the part I wasn't aware of. Sibling comment has pointed out that apparently the US is the only country in the world where this is the case. And totally agree on the latter point.

I'm not an economist, but I have heard that there's an argument to be made the easy firing also makes it so that it's easier to hire too, so it creates more jobs.

That's one of those things that sounds like bullshit, so I don't know that I believe it, but that's what I've heard anyway.

Re: Oracle slashes 30k jobs

#504

Post by p2detar »

jvanderbot wrote: post #194
kyledrake wrote: post #157

The bulk of the comments in here are focused on comparing Larry Ellison to a lawn mower, so I'll try a new tack and say that I'm genuinely confused at what the value prop of Oracle is. Given the history of their business model being licensing of important databases that are hard to switch off of, I've actually made a point to avoid using Oracle as much as possible (even so far as to leave MySQL when they acquired it,…

Oracle and Java are deeply embedded in US gov work. How deep? Let's just say a large number of classified developer jobs hire for Java. Ellison has been a huge proponent of a surveillance state, and that likely ingratiates him with certain three letter agencies. The only developers I know who write Java full time work in systems that take pictures of things from far away.

> The only developers I know who write Java full time work in systems that take pictures of things from far away.

This can’t be a serious comment. I’d say probably half the world‘s B2B and enterprise runs on Java. Especially in Europe.

Re: Oracle slashes 30k jobs

#505

Post by dominotw »

HDThoreaun wrote: post #463
dominotw wrote: post #397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

making wrong decisions at work has no consequences for you? where do you work?

Tech shareholders want executives to take risks building new products. Of course they’d prefer the products be successful but if the options are “hire 30k people 50% chance we have to lay them all off” or “don’t build new products” most tech shareholders want option 1.

where do you pull 50 percent number for oracle?

Re: Oracle slashes 30k jobs

#506

Post by Aurornis »

niek_pas wrote: post #475
tombert wrote: post #454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The at-will firing is just how it is in the US, but I do find it odd how accepting we've become with these corporations massively overhiring. If they have to fire twenty percent of the company, shouldn't that be a signal to investors that the people in charge are morons for overhiring thirty thousand people in the first place? Software engineers aren't cheap; assuming an average compensation of $250,000/year (which I…

Yeah, the "just how it is" part was the part I wasn't aware of. Sibling comment has pointed out that apparently the US is the only country in the world where this is the case. And totally agree on the latter point.

> apparently the US is the only country in the world where this is the case.

The US law isn't translated directly to other countries, but every country allows companies to do layoffs. They just have different requirements for including someone in a layoff.

In some countries the requirements are as minimal as saying that there's not enough work for the person to do. It's basically the same thing with extra steps.

The real difference is requirements for notice periods or severance. Note that in tech companies like Oracle they're giving severance as well.

The other side of this debate is that companies in the United States are much less resistant to hiring people when they know it's easy to scale back later. In our European offices we had to be much more cautious about hiring because the managers in our various European offices were afraid of getting stuck with a bad hire for a long or costly notice period. They also had a lot of games with "trial period" work that I don't fully remember, but I can think of several trial period employees who were dismissed because they were borderline and their managers didn't want to take the risk of having them past the period where letting them go was easy.

Re: Oracle slashes 30k jobs

#507

Post by wiseowise »

WalterBright wrote: post #431
wiseowise wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Several grocery stores in Seattle have closed recently. The same with local Starbucks outlets. Locations that don't make money get closed, even if the rest of the company is doing well. Irrelevant to the topic at hand. Don’t give me a sob story about mom and pop shop, we’re talking about a trillion dollar company. > Also, employees can quit anytime, no notice required. Nobody is obliged to work. Okay? What’s your p…

> Don’t give me a sob story about mom and pop shop The grocery stores were run by national chains. Starbucks is global. > What’s your point? It's symmetric. Companies employ at will, and workers work at will.

> The grocery stores were run by national chains. Starbucks is global.

So you’re confirming my point that billion dollar companies (like Starbucks killing mom and pop shop) have disproportionately more power over individuals or what are you saying?

> It's symmetric. Companies employ at will, and workers work at will.

Workers don’t work at will. Last time I checked UBI is not there, so workers work to pay the bills and put food on the table.

Re: Oracle slashes 30k jobs

#508

Post by Aurornis »

ahtihn wrote: post #493
niek_pas wrote: post #406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As a result, today is your last working day. As a European, I never realized that this is allowed under US labor law. That is absolutely insane. EDIT: some commentors have pointed out that the workers collect severance and unemployment --- I was not aware this is law in California, and that changes matters. I would, though, still find being suddenly out of a job fairly traumatic.

As a European, this seems normal? When someone is fired, they generally stop working immediately while getting paid through the notice period.

I have to be honest that I'm confused by the comment, too. Including the edit about how being out of work would be traumatic, as if losing a job was unique to the United States.

Re: Oracle slashes 30k jobs

#509

Post by jimkleiber »

rustystump wrote: post #383
jimkleiber wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure if companies understand the emotional impact on the laid off and the layoff survivors. It almost seems like a terror campaign, whether intended or not.

Contrary to what people may think, the most humane way is a fast clean cut. Drawing it out in anyway doesnt help anyone. This does assume communication is clear about employee next steps for HR related tasks. This is also why in the other direction a fast clean cut works too. I mean if they want two weeks of “work”, i always consider that severance. The fast clean cut is true in all industries. Drawing it out only ma…

It sounds as if you're describing how to humanely kill a living being.

There are alternatives to killing things and I don't think fast clean cut is true in all industries. I think people want it to be true because then it hides away the complexity of the emotions we feel. Just cut it off and pretend that the cutting off won't bother us or them after the event.

I think that strategy may appear helpful but just buries most of the feelings, which don't go away, most likely just to fester underneath and erode trust.

Re: Oracle slashes 30k jobs

#510

Post by Izkata »

tombert wrote: post #503
niek_pas wrote: post #475

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, the "just how it is" part was the part I wasn't aware of. Sibling comment has pointed out that apparently the US is the only country in the world where this is the case. And totally agree on the latter point.

I'm not an economist, but I have heard that there's an argument to be made the easy firing also makes it so that it's easier to hire too, so it creates more jobs. That's one of those things that sounds like bullshit, so I don't know that I believe it, but that's what I've heard anyway.

The other part is that at-will goes both ways: you can just walk out of a bad job with no legal repercussions. Not always the best idea due for social/professional ones, though.
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