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Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

nytimes.com

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Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#501

Post by dpd_dpd »

txrx0000 wrote: post #466
qingcharles wrote: post #438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is one of the rare problems where there exists no good solution to the issue. Even without taking transfem athletes into consideration, there still remains a problem for women's sports in that sex (not gender) is not fully black and white, male and female, and some high-performing female athletes show signs of intersex, which has caused this entire hysteria about checking for penises. How do you ever come up wit…

The solution is to develop relative skill rating systems like Elo.

No, the solution is to exclude male advantage from the female competition via evidence-based analysis, as the IOC's new policy does.

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#502

Post by frumplestlatz »

chipotle_coyote wrote: post #495
etherus wrote: post #453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The material difference between people we bar and do not bar is not large enough to constitute a difference against competing with people we assign within the same sex group [1][2][3]. This might feel counterintuitive, but please consider that trans people who have medically transitioned are not as different from cis people of the same gender than you expect. Hormones do a lot. [1] https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/early/…

"This might feel counterintuitive" is precisely why the religious right has seized on transgender participation in athletics as a wedge issue. When they say "well, somebody who was born as a man obviously has a natural advantage over people born as women," it feels logical, right? The fact that it largely isn't supported by data rarely comes up, and when it does, it's easy to deflect with "maybe there's just not enou…

Let’s reverse this. Why should physical competition be classified based on sociological conceptions around gender?

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#503

Post by TimorousBestie »

erxam wrote: post #464
simondotau wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But surely puberty, not just maturity, is necessary to fully understand the sexual experience and whether your feelings about yourself crystalise differently in the presence of sexual drive. Not to mention, the idea of delaying puberty seems like an invitation for unrelated and/or unforeseen downstream consequences on biological health.

It is not. Precocious sexual drive is possibly amongst the worst things there is for gaining sexual maturity. Also known as 'thinking with your dick'. CSA aside, you can do a ton of damage to your life by just going along with your sexual drive. I am a virgin at 27 years old. What am I missing about the sexual experience? Is it somehow locked out to me? Or… can I access it intellectually, and reason about it with its…

I’m really scratching my head at the response to this one. Do people around here really believe consent should start at puberty?

I’m aware that’s kind of a meme in certain highly religious and/or conservative communities but it’d be shocking if it were a mainstream position.

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#504

Post by youarentrightjr »

ToucanLoucan wrote: post #493
youarentrightjr wrote: post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry part of my reply got cut off. > What if it's 0? It's not 0, and anyone engaging honestly knows it. To make another vaccine analogy: claiming it's a small number and therefore it doesn't matter is identical to the people who said Covid vaccines weren't important because the disease didn't wipe out more than x% of the population. In fact, it's because of the vaccines that this is the case. And it's because of res…

> Cmon guy, you can't ask for a source and then dismiss the one provided without critically examining it. I did examine it. From the outset it looks like self-reported nonsense, hence the comparison to VAERS. Examining further, yes, it's self-reported nonsense, and also it's broken so I can't even really look into it in detail. The one example that is highlighted with sourcing is about a transwoman golfer who won ONE…

> the narrative is that men are posing as women and competing in an unfair way based on genetic advantage. That's not a "win here and there" situation the way it's framed, that's a "women have no way to fairly compete." So why are so many transwomen still being beated by ciswomen competitors?

Respectfully, you aren't ready to engage in legitimate discussion on this topic. Good faith would be steelmanning the other side, not continually referring to "the narrative" and then "defeating" it.

> There are no men in women's sports, there are women in women's sports, and until you show me the source you're, respectfully, talking nonsense.

Your consistent euphemization around this topic is another clue that you're really not engaging honestly. You should consider what you're looking to get out of this discussion.

A simple Google search will find you dozens of examples of XY individuals competing in spaces meant for XX individuals, at all levels of competition:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lia_Thomas

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laurel_Hubbard

I'm not here to spoon feed you this 101 level info. Again, my advice would be to consider why you're engaging here - is it with an open and curious mind, keen on learning; or a zealous propagandist spirit?

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#505

Post by TurdF3rguson »

scoofy wrote: post #451
qingcharles wrote: post #438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is one of the rare problems where there exists no good solution to the issue. Even without taking transfem athletes into consideration, there still remains a problem for women's sports in that sex (not gender) is not fully black and white, male and female, and some high-performing female athletes show signs of intersex, which has caused this entire hysteria about checking for penises. How do you ever come up wit…

The issue is that “woman’s sports” is itself intentionally discriminatory. That the issue of discrimination comes up is to be expected. The idea of competitive sports exists in a framework of discrimination means that you will always have unhappy people. The good news is that sports, for the most part, is mostly symbolic, and rarely affects ones livelihood.

Assuming you have already procured food and shelter, everything important in your life is symbolic.

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#506

Post by zahlman »

thunderfork wrote: post #482
badc0ffee wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Caster Semenya is XY with a DSD (5-ARD), and absolutely should not compete with females. The same goes for Imane Khelif who was the same DSD. People with this condition have internal testes, a male level of testosterone, and a male level of muscle development. That a doctor assigned them female at birth and put a F on the birth certificate does not change this.

The upshot of this is that women with a genetic advantage are banned, but men with a genetic advantage aren't; is this not straightforwardly sex discrimination?

No. Nobody is banned from the "men's" category, including unambiguously cisgender women of completely unambiguous sexual characteristics. They just wouldn't stand a chance, practically speaking (for example, in the 100 metre sprint, the all-time women's world record time would not meet the qualification standard). There was already "sex discrimination" in the fact of the women's category existing in the first place; this was done as a pragmatic matter so that the world has the opportunity to celebrate peak female physical achievements.

The debate is really around how the handling of intersex and transgender athletes intersects with the original purpose of creating a separate category for women.

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#507

Post by gpm »

ck2 wrote: post #68

The easiest way to explain this nonsense is that in 100+ years of Olympics, there are ZERO elite athletes who were transgender none it's brought to you by the some of the very same people who want you to prove you are a citizen every time you vote because there have been no previous cases of that either However there are women who have given birth who will fail that SRY test Because biology is messy, not black and wh…

There's also cis-male people who will "pass" that SRY test if they take it for some reason...

This is a dumb ass way to try and define the woman's category... which is about the expected result of bigots trying to work backwards from the result they want headlines about.

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#508

Post by zahlman »

Aurornis wrote: post #263
loteck wrote: post #227

I wish people would care a lot less about sports.

I actually wish non-sports people would care less about sports, too. Because the decisions should be left to those of us playing the sports. Not bystanders trying to impose their own agendas on to activities they don't even participate in.

>Because the decisions should be left to those of us playing the sports.

You can make the decisions, but you can't make the audience (a much larger body of people, who overwhelmingly do not participate in the sport, at least not competitively) agree with (or care about) your decisions or reasoning.

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#509

Post by trhway »

qingcharles wrote: post #438
callistocodes wrote: post #334

My two cents as a transfem athlete: The attention this topic receives is disproportionate considering how rare we are, especially close to the Olympics level. Most of us do sports for fun/friends and don’t care how they rank us, but would be sad to be banned. There might be more “biological advantage” nuance with people just starting their transition, but by this many years in it feels silly. I registered as a man fo…

This is one of the rare problems where there exists no good solution to the issue. Even without taking transfem athletes into consideration, there still remains a problem for women's sports in that sex (not gender) is not fully black and white, male and female, and some high-performing female athletes show signs of intersex, which has caused this entire hysteria about checking for penises. How do you ever come up wit…

>This is one of the rare problems where there exists no good solution to the issue.

similar problem in boat races - different boats have different characteristics, thus PHRF rating. Not perfect, yet it works.

The same thing i expect to happen with human sports too - analyze DNA, assign handicap score, and let everybody run. Of course that wouldn't work for say boxing or judo - though even here with time we can come up with exoskeletons (or some drugs) equalizing your DNA-based advantages/disadvantages.

Or we can just have competitions in 3 categories - "only those assigned male at birth", "only those assigned female at birth", "anybody can choose to compete in that category". The 3rd category may just naturally become most competitive and interesting without any "males in female sports" issues we currently have.

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#510

Post by Ralfp »

salemh wrote: post #436
Ralfp wrote: post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you considered that due to their education and research those people may know more on the subject than you do? Regret rates for transition remain notoriously low (within 2%) with main reasons for regret stated to be transitioning too late or environmental lack of acceptance or support. Besides, despite some orgs claiming there is a "transgender trend", we are just not seeing this in the data.

[flagged]

In 2017 Johns Hopkins Hospital has reopened its transgender care clinic as the Johns Hopkins Center for Transgender and Gender Expansive Health.

2022 research into Hospital's archives found the decision to cease operation in 1979 was political, not evidence based:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36191317/

> *70%-80% of children who expressed transgender feelings, overtime, lost those feelings.

This number most likely comes from a study that classified girls as transgender based on behaviors like preference to wear their hair short of wear pants instead of dresses or skirt:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21216800/

Those children did not self-identify as transgender and further more, research could not contact 41% of them for the follow up:

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/the-end-of-the-desistance_b_8...

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